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Featured Why Don't Modern Denominations Understand The Rapture

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JD731, Nov 24, 2023.

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  1. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    No one says Jesus isn't coming. He will come suddenly (like a thief in the night) and with the sound of thunder and the brightness of lightening (Matthew 24)

    Matthew 13 is a parable showing us that God has his elect (marked by God), but Satan has marked as well. God will not separate them until the full harvest is ready. The last of the elect must come to faith. (2 Peter 3)

    In the end, the winepress of God's wrath will fall on Satan and his marked ones.
    Here's what Revelation says happens.
    1) Babylon falls and is destroyed.
    2) The Beast and second beast are destroyed.
    3) The marked of Satan are destroyed.

    Finally, all of us are judged. Only those found in Christ will be justified and enter into the eternal rest. All others enter into the lake of fire.

    May you be blessed today.
     
  2. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Isreal stopped being a nation in 720BC. No cosmic battle between Israel and Satan after that. There literally has to be a 12 tribe Israel for there to be a cosmic battle. There does not have to be a 12 tribe Israel for Jesus to be born. Your presupposition inserts a cosmic battle happening both in the chapter and in the present.

    Now to put this chapter in historical reality, we have to see what the dragon even represents. We are told more detail in Revelation 17 that the dragon represents 6 human kingdoms throughout history, and Satan is the 8th kingdom.

    "And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."

    7 heads and 8 kings or empires, the 7th kingdom is not part of this dragon at all. At the time John is writing the book about this dragon, 5 empires no longer exist. The 6th empire is the one with the deadly wound, that is healed by Satan, just prior to the 7th kingdom being ushered in. Then the 7th kingdom is placed on hold for the 8th kingdom of Satan Himself.

    That is what the verses tell us:

    "And there are seven kings: five are fallen (Babylon, Medes and Persia, Greece, Rome, the Holy Roman Empire), and one is ( the world of the Reformation and no one single government in control, literally defunct with a deadly wound. The church as a mountain filling the whole earth preventing a one world government), and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space (Jesus is declared King at the 7th Trumpet). And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth (the head of the dragon, Satan for 42 months of AoD), and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

    Yes, this world system has been in a struggle with Israel, the problem is that Israel has not even existed for the majority of this struggle. What has held this beast from the sea in check since the 10 toes, is the church. When the church is removed at the Second Coming, Satan will take credit for restoring a one world government, the healing of the deadly wound. But placing Matthew 13 and Matthew 25 into context of this dragon, Satan will have direct competition with Jesus and His angels on the the earth at the same time. That is why we see the first woe given to Satan at the 5th Trumpet, when he is allowed to open the pit and release his one third of the stars that followed him in rebellion. But those stars have been defunct in chains of darkness waiting for almost 6,000 years. Now we see them come into the picture to the point that at the 7th Trumpet they have to be cast out of heaven once more, because they have mounted an assault against Michael to the point of attacking heaven as well as earth.

    Any spiritual battle taking place since Adam or even the Flood is not with angels. It has always been with human spirits and sons of God. Humanity has a spiritual side and that has always been this so called cosmic battle. The physical confrontation is just the half of the story. The spiritual side of humanity has also always been locked in battle including and up to demonic possession of those physically alive. That is why the occult has always been off limits to humanity on earth. Satan thought he would have angels on his side, but they were bound in the pit immediately upon leaving their post in the firmament. Satan had to turn the spiritual side of humanity against God instead. Starting with getting Adam to disobey God.
     
  3. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    This book that John wrote with the use of symbolism was supposed to have 7 copies and each copy delivered to those 7 churches.

    The book was found and distributed to those churches in the first century. The Second Coming did not happen in the first century.

    Each church was given a small note at the beginning. But it would seem they all received an exact copy each seeing the other church's comments. John wrote the book after caught up in the spirit to the Day of the Lord. In fact the first copy was being written as those events happened. Later John had to make 6 more copies. Obviously the book will not be distributed in the future after the Second Coming. John was returned by the same spirit that caught him up.

    You can argue that John was not caught up in chapter 1, but indeed he was in chapter 4. Now unless a spirit can write down what he sees, then John kept going up and down multiple times. How many times is John going up and down?

    "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."

    How long would it take John to transcribe these comments? Probably about the time it takes to read them out loud. So caught up to the Day of the Lord was within minutes of the start of this event that John was a witness to. John was continuously writing down what he heard and saw.

    "And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not."
     
  4. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    John tells us the Dragon is Satan. (Revelation 20:2)

    You are so fixated on extreme literalism that you seem almost incapable of reading apocalyptic literature. It is a cause in your struggle to understand what God is telling us in Revelation. The encouragement for me is that I once was you. In my younger years I would have thought just like you do. But, I changed because the Bible was read by me, without forcing a dispensational/futurist presupposition upon it.
    Now, the entire Bible is so much more alive and active and blessed than it ever was when it was constricted to dispensational/futurist demands on the text.
    Sadly, in evangelical circles, the futurist view is so strongly demanded that I view many dispensationists as similar to the Pharisees.
     
  5. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    You claimed John used Kabbalist methods. You assert John used Jewish mysticism. The Word of God is given by God, and does not need Jewish mysticism. That is a human interpretation, and not even a logical approach to understanding the Bible.

    You do realize that humans are born each year, which means they have about 70 to 90 years to repent. God has given humans 1993 years of time to repent.

    Satan has always been bound as you describe binding. Even in the Garden he could not force feed Eve and Adam to eat the fruit. So your binding has been for 6,000 years. Not the same binding mentioned in Revelation 20, where Satan is in a pit where his angels once were for those 6,000 years.

    Jesus is God. God is God. The Holy Spirit is God. Together they are the Lord God. God sits on the GWT. The Lamb sits on a separate throne in Jerusalem. Jesus may bring a throne from heaven, but Jesus is human in size, the GWT reaches from earth to heaven filling the firmament in between heaven and earth. Jesus sits on a throne in a Temple in Jerusalem. Jesus is currently in heaven. God is currently sitting on the GWT, we cannot see it because of spiritual blindness.

    We are in the picture frame of the Second Coming. Those 200 years ago were not. Those a thousand years ago were not. Those in the first century were not. Time is literal. We have literal time keeping devices that shows us the progression of time. You have Jewish mysticism that you assert into God's Word.

    I am simply pointing out that prophecy does not always fit human interpretation of what was written. Wars and rumors of wars is vague and ambiguous. The Messiah coming was specific and happened. When John uses time whether 42 months or a thousand years, you can count on that being specific. You seem to be the one claiming John was "lying" about a future thousand years.

    Did Jonah lie about God's prophetic announcement? Or did God repent and change His mind? If God changes His plan, are you accusing God of deceiving us?
     
  6. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    Your first sentence is utterly false.
    Be honest. You have ascribed kabbalism to Amillennial teaching on Revelation. You are the one who has tried to do the connecting, not me. You are being entirely dishonest and untruthful.

    John wrote, using apocalyptic language. He used a very common technique of gematria. Read Matthew 1 and you will see gematria employed there as well when the writer turns the genealogy into groups of fourteen.

    Satan has been particularly bound from annihilating the church. God has given the church the ability to grow from a mustard seed to a great tree. This would not happen if Satan were not bound. Again, read Job 1 and Job 2.

    Your incapacity to read Revelation in any other frame outside of the dispensationalism you've been indoctrinated into has caused you to miss what John is saying. We will disagree, yet both remain brothers in Christ.

    Blessings to you this day.
     
  7. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Coming is not the issue. You claim Jesus is not coming to the earth and walking among us humans like He did in the first century.

    You don't have to interpret the parable. Jesus already told us and it is not symbolism nor metaphor.

    Jesus clearly told is he was going to walk among us and gather the wheat. Satan is going to gather the tares. Then the angels are going to remove both. Not in the winepress. But they will be delivered from off the earth. The tares to the LOF. The wheat to the sea of glass. Revelation explains where these wheat and tares are going. Yet many will be left on the earth. Those left will either be beheaded or sent through the winepress. The wheat are not beheaded. The angels don't behead people. The tares are not marked. They are removed from the Lamb's book of life and cast into the LOF.

    You just deny that Jesus is on the earth gathering people, at the same time Satan is free to walk about and openly deceive humanity.

    The church is not judged last. The church was removed as Jesus was coming to the earth. The church was judged in that twinkling of an eye moment, and glorified in view of the entire earth. Then the church was told to rest awhile while Jesus and the angels were on the earth gathering the final harvest.

    "And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."
     
  8. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Extreme literalism? How about acknowledging that a symbol has a literal meaning? All you are doing is stating the book is so symbolic, only you or people who agree with you, know what the book means.

    And I view all Amill thought processes as being of a Sadducee mind set; deny, deny, deny.

    So what have my post exactly forced onto the text of God's Word?
     
  9. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    Quote me. I dare you to prove this or admit you are speaking falsely.

    Do you read this as being literal?
    (Matthew 13:24-30)
    Here is another story Jesus told: “The Kingdom of Heaven is like a farmer who planted good seed in his field. But that night as the workers slept, his enemy came and planted weeds among the wheat, then slipped away. When the crop began to grow and produce grain, the weeds also grew. “The farmer’s workers went to him and said, ‘Sir, the field where you planted that good seed is full of weeds! Where did they come from?’ “‘An enemy has done this!’ the farmer exclaimed. “‘Should we pull out the weeds?’ they asked. “‘No,’ he replied, ‘you’ll uproot the wheat if you do. Let both grow together until the harvest. Then I will tell the harvesters to sort out the weeds, tie them into bundles, and burn them, and to put the wheat in the barn.’”

    Jesus said:
    (Matthew 13:11-13)
    He replied, “You are permitted to understand the secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven, but others are not. To those who listen to my teaching, more understanding will be given, and they will have an abundance of knowledge. But for those who are not listening, even what little understanding they have will be taken away from them. That is why I use these parables, For they look, but they don’t really see. They hear, but they don’t really listen or understand.

    Read the parable. The harvesters are his angels. Now read Revelation 14:14-20 and you will see the fulfillment of the parable.

    Provide the text. Hint: You have no text.

    Show the text. Hint: You have none.

    Indeed, it does, but it doesn't say what you are saying.

    Again, you have no text. You are actually making this up and butchering the parable.

    If course not. Your reading of Revelation is bizarre.

    Yes, they are those who are marked by the beast even today.

    They were never in the Lambs book of Life. They were never marked by God. They were not marked for adoption before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1).

    Quote me or admit you speak falsely.
    Jesus is sowing the seeds of salvation even this moment. Marking those with the good soil as his elect.

    I have told you many times that Satan is not free. He is bound and held back by God's ordination.

    All humanity stands before God at the Great White Throne. We who were made alive with Christ and justified in Christ by faith are made holy by the shed blood of Christ Jesus alone. Those who are not in Christ are thrown into the lake of fire.

    You speak in the past tense. When did this happen and where is the historical text for this event?

    The martyrs are dressed in white even as I write this response. They reign with Christ in heaven. The Bible tells us that God has work for us to do in heaven. You won't be sleeping the day away.

    Now, you need to stop speaking falsely about me. Quote me and exactly what I say, or ask for clarification of a quote, but don't lie to me and tell me I have said something that I have not said. You should be better than that.
     
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  10. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    Of course a symbol has a meaning, but the word used by the author is not meant to be taken by its literal meaning. For example, John talks about lamp stands. They are not literal. John then tells us that they are meant to represent the churches.

    Wrong. That's not what I am stating. I am telling you that 1000 years doesn't mean a literal 1000 years. 42 months, 1240 days, are not literal. 144,000 is not literal people. These numbers are all symbolic. A 666 is not literally stamped as a mark on humans. They don't actually worship a literal beast.

    What have I denied besides the dispensational/futurist interpretation of Revelation?
    Our difference is that I know futurism by being inundated with it from childhood. Both my parents died looking for a pre-trib rapture.
    In my studying, I saw that futurism was disjointed and unprofitable. It made most of Revelation irrelevant for today. But, an Amillennial view shows the tremendous practicality of the entire letter as one of the most encouraging books in the Bible for us today. No fear, just incredible encouragement. So, I make no apologies for God blessing me with this book through the Amillennial view.

    What scripture do you have that proves all you assertions? I have pointed you to text after text. You have been making up lies about what I have said.

    If you are going to convince anyone of your view, you have to have biblical proof to back it up. Try that.
     
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  11. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    FWIW, there's more than one 'day of the Lord' alluded to in the scriptures, and, the day of the Lord is never a good thing if you're on the recieving end of His anger.

    Babylon:
    1 The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.
    5 They come from a far country, from the uttermost part of heaven, even Jehovah, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.
    6 Wail ye; for the day of Jehovah is at hand; as destruction from the Almighty shall it come. Isa 13

    Judah:
    8 Jehovah hath purposed to destroy the wall of the daughter of Zion; He hath stretched out the line, he hath not withdrawn his hand from destroying; And he hath made the rampart and wall to lament; they languish together.
    22 Thou hast called, as in the day of a solemn assembly, my terrors on every side; And there was none that escaped or remained in the day of Jehovah`s anger: Those that I have dandled and brought up hath mine enemy consumed. Lam 2

    Egypt and those in league with her:
    3 For the day is near, even the day of Jehovah is near; it shall be a day of clouds, a time of the nations.
    4 And a sword shall come upon Egypt, and anguish shall be in Ethiopia, when the slain shall fall in Egypt; and they shall take away her multitude, and her foundations shall be broken down.
    5 Ethiopia, and Put, and Lud, and all the mingled people, and Cub, and the children of the land that is in league, shall fall with them by the sword. Ezek 30

    Nations that did violence to Israel:
    14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! for the day of Jehovah is near in the valley of decision.
    15 The sun and the moon are darkened, and the stars withdraw their shining.
    19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence done to the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land. Joel 3

    Israel:
    1 Hear ye this word which I take up for a lamentation over you, O house of Israel.
    18 Woe unto you that desire the day of Jehovah! Wherefore would ye have the day of Jehovah? It is darkness, and not light.
    19 As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.
    20 Shall not the day of Jehovah be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it? Amos 5

    Edom (and other nations?):
    1 The vision of Obadiah. Thus saith the Lord Jehovah concerning Edom: We have heard tidings from Jehovah, and an ambassador is sent among the nations, saying, Arise ye, and let us rise up against her in battle.
    15 For the day of Jehovah is near upon all the nations: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee; thy dealing shall return upon thine own head. Ob 1

    Maktesh:
    7 Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord Jehovah; for the day of Jehovah is at hand: for Jehovah hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath consecrated his guests.
    11 Wail, ye inhabitants of Maktesh; for all the people of Canaan are undone; all they that were laden with silver are cut off.
    14The great day of Jehovah is near, it is near and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of Jehovah; the mighty man crieth there bitterly.
    15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
    18Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of Jehovah`s wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he will make an end, yea, a terrible end, of all them that dwell in the land. Zeph 1

    Exhortation to Repent before the Chaldean Invaders Come. Doom of Judah's Foes, the Philistines, Moab, Ammon, with Their Idols, and Ethiopia and Assyria.
    1 Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation that hath no shame;
    2 before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of Jehovah come upon you, before the day of Jehovah`s anger come upon you.
    3 Seek ye Jehovah, all ye meek of the earth, that have kept his ordinances; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye will be hid in the day of Jehovah`s anger. Zeph 2

    Apostate Judaism:
    5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet (read JOHN THE BAPTIST) before the great and terrible day of Jehovah come. Mal 4
     
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  12. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    I was not accusing Amil of anything to do with Kabbalist teachings. Only you because that is how you approach the book of Revelation.

    I don't think dispensationalists are totally correct either.
     
  13. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    Again, no one except you is saying anything about a cult. You are being deceitful and dishonest with what I have said. You are in the wrong and should acknowledge it. Will you be willing to suck up your pride and admit you have misspoken?
     
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  14. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Why Don't Modern Denominations Understand The Rapture?

    Because they do not believe the words of the OT and cannot follow the logic. Here are the four major prophetical themes of the scriptures. Without these one is left to private interpretations like we see on these forums.

    1)The Kingdom
    2) The Remnant
    3) The two comings of Jesus Christ to the earth, once to suffer and once to reign.
    4) The day of the LORD

    A capable teacher of the prophetic scriptures must have a handle on these themes.
     
    #134 JD731, Dec 4, 2023
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2023
  15. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    Indeed, you are a modern denomination and you do not recognize the extensive quotation or pointing to the Old Testament by the NT authors, thus you don't understand the rapture.

    The question is, why don't you understand?

    My thought is that you were raised drinking the dispensational kool-aid and you have never considered any other drink to be biblical and have never been open to understanding any other view.

    Since you are from a modern denomination, please answer why you don't understand the rapture.
     
  16. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Will you please consider this quote from Jesus Christ.

    Lk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
    26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
    27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

    44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
    45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
    46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
    \47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

    There was nothing but OT scriptures when Jesus spoke these words to these men. They had travelled with him and heard him preach for 3 years plus and saw him as he did his miracles and heard him proclaim that he was the son of God, and they did not understand the scriptures until he opened their understanding. This tells us that in order to understand his person and work one must begin in the OT scriptures and one must believe them. These men did not make the proper application of those scriptures for advancing forward.

    Now, I can quote you hundreds of scriptures from the OT that you do not believe. There is a possibility that you have never read them. Your teaching of ammillennialism and a general election and a general judgement at the end of six thousand years of human history makes you look like a false teacher whom Jesus Christ has never opened understanding of the scriptures.To fail to understand his new, undesclosed purpose of the NT (covenant) church of Jesus Christ and it's predestination, that is unique to it and separate from the OT prophesies of his nation and people of Israel is a good indicator that you have not grasped the NT truth of the gospel of God, the theme of the 13 letters of the apostle Paul of the good news that he will receive anyone personally into his church who will hear, repent of their sins and receive Jesus Christ by faith and that he take them to heaven to be with him before he deals with the rebels left on the earth in extreme purging judgement.

    If God does not open your understanding these men mentioned by all these commentators who they assume are the top of the lot will not be able to help you either. Many of them do not have understanding. This is a present evil age and there is much false teaching.. Ga 1:4.
     
  17. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    @taisto in post #93 you wrote "John is employing gematria in the numbers, not literalism."

    Gematria is a numerological system by which Hebrew letters correspond to numbers. This system, developed by practitioners of Kabbalah (Jewish mysticism), derived from Greek influence and became a tool for interpreting biblical texts.

    So if you say that John is using germatia then that would lead someone to conclude that your saying that John was a Kabbali would it not.

    But since historically, Kabbalah emerged from earlier forms of Jewish mysticism, in 12th- to 13th-century Spain and Southern France, and was reinterpreted during the Jewish mystical renaissance in 16th-century Ottoman Palestine. The Zohar, the foundational text of Kabbalah, was composed in the late 13th century.

    So why would you think that John was using germatia? What scripture do you base this assumption on?

    It seems you have misunderstood the biblical meaning of Satan being bound.
    What we see in the bible is that Satan does have power "according to the prince of the power of the air", and uses this power to deceive "who now works in the sons of disobedience" Eph_2:2 and we know that he can and does deceive all people "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Rom 3:23.


    But this what we see as Satan being bound biblically:
    Rev_20:2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
    Rev_20:3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished.
     
  18. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

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    Gematria is far before the kabbalah cult. I never made any connection to it. Only you folks who cannot admit that John's us of numbers is not literal, just like Matthews use of 14 in his first chapter is not literal. There were kings Matthew left out.

    It is very clear that Daniels 70 weeks and 1420 days are not literal. John drew much of his symbolism from the Old Testament and the prophets. His numbering, like the prophets, is poetic symbolism. Perhaps you are not recognizing the poetry of the prophets. Is that a reason why you cannot see what John is doing?

    Satan is presently bound. He is not able to deceive the nations as he would do in a free situation. The gospel is spreading all across the globe, even in communist and Islamic countries that are hostile to the gospel.
    One day, the evil one will be unrestrained to attack the church with a vengeance. Then, our King will return and destroy the unholy trinity of the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet. The 666.
     
  19. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    It seems you want to allegorize the Revelation so you can make it say whatever you need it to say. While you feel strongly that your view is correct but many scholars have disagreed with your view. I think the Holy Spirit in His wisdom inspired John to write it in such a way so that it could be understood via different views.
     
  20. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. I see no reason not to take Daniels 70 weeks and 1420 days as they are written. You tend to an allegorical understanding of the bible which allows you to make that bible says anything that you want it to say. I am more literal in my approach to scripture.

    Literal in Theology The “literal sense is the meaning conveyed by the words of Scripture and discovered by exegesis, following the rules of sound interpretation.
    There are various literary styles used in the Bible. These range from Narrative, to Law, Wisdom, Poetry, Apocalyptic literature etc.We need to be aware of these if we are to correctly understand what the Holy Spirit is wanting to convey to us.

    As I said before, you have not presented any evidence that would make me think that the Amill view is the correct understanding of scripture.

     
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