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  #1  
Old 11-21-2002, 02:28 PM
ONENESS ONENESS is offline
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Ok let me say from the onset that this is not a topic on tongues. This is just to discuss wether or not we need the Holy Ghost to be saved.

DHK mentioned on a diffrent topic that The Book of Romans does not mention that we need the Holy Ghost to go to heaven. Does it? Does it have to mention it at all?

We find in John 3:1-8 Jesus had a conversation with Nickodemus. Jesus told him that he had to be born again. Nick did not understand so Jesus had a little talk with him and said that you have got to be born of the Water and the SPIRIT to enter into the Kingdom of God. Jesus stressed it so much that he even said it a third time that you must be born again.

Now from a monotheistic view we believe that there is absolute One God who is not seperated into person. We believe that The Spirit inside the Son is Father. We do not believe that the Father and the Holy Spirit are two seperate Spirits. We believe that they are all the same being. The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all manifestations that God revealed himself to humanity.

We know that the Holy Ghost is the Father of The baby Jesus. Luke 1:35 lets us know that The Holy Ghost is the one that caused the conception.

We know that Jesus returned to us as another comforter. (the Holy Ghost) We know that Jesus said "I will not leave you comfortless, I will come to you. John 14 does a wonderful job at decribeing the Oneness of God.

Now I said all that to say this. Romans 8:9 says

But ye are not in the Flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the SPIRIT OF CHRIST, HE IS NONE OF HIS.

First Paul causes it the Spirit of God then He Calls it the Spirit of Christ.

It then goes on to say in verse 11 that "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the Dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies, by the Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Romans is definatly letting us know that we must have the Holy Ghost, Holy Spirit, or Spirit of God (they are all the same) to be his.

So with that I can keep on going. Who raised up Jesus from the Dead? Was it the Father, was it the Son or was it the Holy Ghost. The bible lets us know in John 2:19 Jesus said that [/b]HE[/b] would raise HIMSELF from the dead. Also see Mat 26:61.

So you tell me DHK... Do we need the Spirit of God in order to be saved?

God Bless

[ November 21, 2002, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]
  #2  
Old 11-21-2002, 02:46 PM
DHK DHK is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by ONENESS:
So you tell me DHK... Do we need the Spirit of God in order to be saved?
Romans 8:10-11
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

"If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."
The Scripture is plain on this teaching. Of course one needs the Holy Spirit to go to Heaven. But it is also plain that the Holy Spirit does not come through either baptism or speaking in tongues. It comes when one confess Christ as Lord and believes that God has raised Christ from the dead. That is when one is saved, and that is when Christ, by the power of His Holy Spirit, comes and indwells the believer.

Water in John 3:5 in no way refers to baptism; it refers to the Word of God. We are born again through the Word of God. Compare Scripture with Scripture. Remember the Word of God does not contradict itself.

1Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
--Being born again of what?? Of the Word of God.
Of the Word of God, and of the Spirit of God. That leaves only one interpretation for water--the Word of God.
DHK
  #3  
Old 11-21-2002, 03:24 PM
ONENESS ONENESS is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ONENESS:
So you tell me DHK... Do we need the Spirit of God in order to be saved?
Romans 8:10-11
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

"If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."
The Scripture is plain on this teaching. Of course one needs the Holy Spirit to go to Heaven. But it is also plain that the Holy Spirit does not come through either baptism or speaking in tongues. It comes when one confess Christ as Lord and believes that God has raised Christ from the dead. That is when one is saved, and that is when Christ, by the power of His Holy Spirit, comes and indwells the believer.

Water in John 3:5 in no way refers to baptism; it refers to the Word of God. We are born again through the Word of God. Compare Scripture with Scripture. Remember the Word of God does not contradict itself.

1Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
--Being born again of what?? Of the Word of God.
Of the Word of God, and of the Spirit of God. That leaves only one interpretation for water--the Word of God.
DHK
</font>[/QUOTE]DHK, The reason for this was not to determine when and how we got it. My reason was to see if people really beleive that someone must have the Holy Ghost to go to heaven.

If you say that we are born by the word of God that covers the Spirit as well. I dont really want to argue but it simple to see that being born of the Water is Water baptisim. See the book of Acts when people were experiencing the New Birth for the First time.
  #4  
Old 11-21-2002, 03:36 PM
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donnA donnA is offline
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You want to know what I believe?
Ok, I believe what the bible teaches us, God is one revealed in three, that when a person is sved the Holy Spirit indwells them at the monent of salvation, therefore, only those saved are going to heaven, and those saved also have the Holy SPirit indwelling them, therefore only those who have the indwelling Holy Spirit/ saved are going to heaven. Seems clear enough when you read the bible.
  #5  
Old 11-21-2002, 03:38 PM
Don Don is online now
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DHK, that's an interesting analysis that I knew, but had never put into words or that particular terminology before. And it's something I need to ponder a while more.

"born of water" = "living water" I think is what you're saying.

Oneness, a question: What would you tell DHK if all he ever told you was "refer to Romans"?

[ November 21, 2002, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: Don ]
  #6  
Old 11-21-2002, 03:41 PM
DHK DHK is offline
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[quote]Originally posted by ONENESS:
Quote:
If you say that we are born by the word of God that covers the Spirit as well. I dont really want to argue but it simple to see that being born of the Water is Water baptisim. See the book of Acts when people were experiencing the New Birth for the First time.
No the Word of God and the Spirit of God are not the same thing, and one does not cover the other; to say so would be doing an injustice to the Scriptures. To imply that water is baptism is to do injustice to the Scripture. The Word in the Greek is water, not baptism. Whatever way you take it, it must be symbolic. You say it refers to baptism. Baptism is not even referred to in the context, nor does it fit the context. Does water, every time it is used in the Bible mean baptism? Of course not? Neither does it here.
Water is used symbolically as a cleansing agent.

John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Water cleanses. Jesus says: so also does the Word, which I have spoken to you. The Word is a cleansing agent, just like water.
We are born again through the Word of God and through the Spirit of God. Do not "wrest... the scriptures, unto (your) own destruction." (2Pet.3:16).
DHK

[ November 21, 2002, 03:45 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]
  #7  
Old 11-21-2002, 04:14 PM
Mike McK Mike McK is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by ONENESS:
Now from a monotheistic view we believe that there is absolute One God who is not seperated into person. We believe that The Spirit inside the Son is Father. We do not believe that the Father and the Holy Spirit are two seperate Spirits. We believe that they are all the same being. The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all manifestations that God revealed himself to humanity.
What you mean "we", white man?

I don't know anyone here or in all of orthodoxy whobelieves this.

Quote:
We know that Jesus returned to us as another comforter.
Again, "we" don't know any such thing.

The Bible makes it abundantly clear that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are two distinctly different beings.

Quote:
John 14 does a wonderful job at decribeing the Oneness of God.
v2 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father.

v6 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father.

v7 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father while, at the same time, establishing His authority to speak on the Father's behalf.

v.10-11 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father while, at the same time establishing His authority to speak on the Father's behalf.

v.12 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father.

v.13 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father.

v.16 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from both the Father and the Holy Spirit while at the same time distinguishes the Father from the Holy Spirit

v.17 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Holy Spirit

v.20 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father

v.21 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father

v.23 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father (note His use of the word, "We")

v.24 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father

v.26 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from both the Father and the Holy Spirit

v.28 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father

v.31 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father

Either you or Jesus is really confused.

Quote:
The bible lets us know in John 2:19 Jesus said that
Quote:
HE[/b] would raise HIMSELF from the dead.[/b]
It looks like an account of the wedding feast at Cana to me.

And when the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine and knew not whence it was (but the servsants which drew the water knew), the governor of the feast called the bridegroom

So much for John 2:9.

Quote:
Also see Mat 26:61.
...and?
  #8  
Old 11-21-2002, 04:29 PM
ONENESS ONENESS is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Smoke_Eater:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ONENESS:
Now from a monotheistic view we believe that there is absolute One God who is not seperated into person. We believe that The Spirit inside the Son is Father. We do not believe that the Father and the Holy Spirit are two seperate Spirits. We believe that they are all the same being. The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all manifestations that God revealed himself to humanity.
What you mean "we", white man?

I don't know anyone here or in all of orthodoxy whobelieves this.

Quote:
We know that Jesus returned to us as another comforter.
Again, "we" don't know any such thing.

The Bible makes it abundantly clear that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are two distinctly different beings.

Quote:
John 14 does a wonderful job at decribeing the Oneness of God.
v2 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father.

v6 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father.

v7 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father while, at the same time, establishing His authority to speak on the Father's behalf.

v.10-11 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father while, at the same time establishing His authority to speak on the Father's behalf.

v.12 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father.

v.13 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father.

v.16 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from both the Father and the Holy Spirit while at the same time distinguishes the Father from the Holy Spirit

v.17 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Holy Spirit

v.20 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father

v.21 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father

v.23 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father (note His use of the word, "We")

v.24 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father

v.26 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from both the Father and the Holy Spirit

v.28 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father

v.31 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father

Either you or Jesus is really confused.

Quote:
The bible lets us know in John 2:19 Jesus said that
Quote:
HE
Quote:
would raise HIMSELF from the dead.[/b]
It looks like an account of the wedding feast at Cana to me.

And when the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine and knew not whence it was (but the servsants which drew the water knew), the governor of the feast called the bridegroom

So much for John 2:9.

Quote:
Also see Mat 26:61.
...and?[/b]</font>[/QUOTE]If you want to have a nice little discussion on the Oneness of God I would be happy to meet you over at the Thread "Oneness Vs. The Trinity. But if all you want to do is argue dont worry with it.

God bless.
  #9  
Old 11-21-2002, 04:32 PM
ONENESS ONENESS is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Don:
DHK, that's an interesting analysis that I knew, but had never put into words or that particular terminology before. And it's something I need to ponder a while more.

"born of water" = "living water" I think is what you're saying.

Oneness, a question: What would you tell DHK if all he ever told you was "refer to Romans"?
I dont understand what you are saying...Are you saying what would I say if DHK told me to refer to Romans for salvation if I was not saved, or somthing else?
  #10  
Old 11-21-2002, 04:43 PM
jasonW* jasonW* is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by ONENESS:

So you tell me DHK... Do we need the Spirit of God in order to be saved?
When did you stop beating your wife? This is a loaded question for a couple of reasons:

1. Are you saved because you have the spirit of God or do you have the spirit of God because you are saved?

The question "Do we need to have the holy ghost to be saved?" does not address sequence, rather, only presense.

Am I saved because of God?
Am I saved because I have the holy spirit?
Am I saved because I have faith in Christ and I receive the Holy Spirit at my conversion?

Or, are you trying to leave it ambigious and obscure?

2. This question is also phrased to imply that someone proposed the idea that one could be saved without God, or the spirit of God. I am not sure this is the case.

In short, the wording of the question is poor and can lead to much run around. Would you mind rewording it?

In Christ,
jason
 

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