“Faith for Receiving Salvation”

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by NetChaplain, Mar 22, 2013.

  1. NetChaplain

    NetChaplain
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    A possible helpful question could be, "Can one truly believe in Christ's earthly life (1Jo 4:3; 2Jo 1:7) and His resurrection (Rom 10:9) and also truly believe this alone is insufficient for salvation?

    I believe while we are in an unregenerate state, we can only desire to believe in God (which I believe also comes from Him - John 6:44) because it cannot truly become practical until He imparts faith through His Spirit during regeneration, which of course must be preceded by first being aware of the Gospel essentials for faith (listed above). For it stands to reason that it requires knowing what facts are to be believed in before believing in them can become a practicality.

    Once essentials are known, God is approached in prayer request for salvation and upon the Spirit entering the seeker's life (if sincere), His fruit (Gal 5:22 - not fruits, it's a singular package which includes faith, different from the ministerial gift of faith - 1 Cor 12:9) begins to take effect, as "The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God" (Rom 8:16).

    The Spirit's personal "witness" or confirmation of faith in Christ is continually affirmed in us, without which such a conviction and gradual convincing of faith is not possible. This permanent consoling of the Holy Spirit is where faith not only takes root but grows--but only through Scripture.

    I believe it would not be possible for the Spirit of God to be neglectful in allowing the new-born to continually walk in ignorance of Christ's sufficiency. If one truly believes in an error, e.g. that works are also required for receiving salvation, I believe it may evince one of two possibilities; a temporary unawareness of this truth, in which it's just a matter of time before the Spirit reveals it; or there was not a true desire for salvation upon request (James 4:3), thus the absence of the Spirit.
     
  2. Winman

    Winman
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    Many of your fellow Calvinists would disagree with you and say it is impossible for an unregenerate person to DESIRE to believe in God. Most believe an unregenerate man can only rebel against God and needs a new heart to have any good desires toward God.

    Of course, I believe Calvinism is total nonsense, so I disagree with your view and theirs.
     
  3. NetChaplain

    NetChaplain
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    Hi Win -Concerning Calvinism, I myself still cannot accept that God calls or does not call, regardless our choices. I also see no clear scriptural support for the concept that it requires Him to cause an irresistible control in you to come to Him, regardless your choice. If it requires an irresistible call then He would make that so for everyone, or result in injustice, which is never so.

    It stands to scriptural reason that God had foreknowledge, from eternity past, of all who were to choose for Him and not for Him, which the latter will involve the majority of mankind (Matt 7:13, 14).

    Making choices, esp. those with eternal determinations have been accountable to man since the first time God allowed Adam to choose that which was allowed and that which was forbidden. Man making choices is evident all through Scripture, with a good example in Deu 30:19; "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live."
     
  4. Winman

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    Well, you are trying to walk on the fence there. You said earlier that God imparts faith through regeneration. THAT is what Calvinists believe.

    The scriptures say exactly the opposite, that no man has regeneration (which means to be made alive AGAIN) until he first believes.

    Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

    Calvinism falsely teaches you must have life (be regenerated) to believe. The scriptures clearly teach you must believe to have life (be regenerated).

    No man can be spiritually alive until AFTER he believes, because until you believe you are dead in trespasses and sins. A man is only justified or forgiven after he believes, so faith MUST precede regeneration.

    So, your statement was error.
     
  5. NetChaplain

    NetChaplain
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    The quickening and the faith are simultaneous because they are inseparable.
     
  6. Winman

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    Nevertheless, the scriptural ORDER is faith precedes being made alive. I could show you dozens of verses that say a man must believe to have life. You cannot show a single verse that says a person must have life to believe.

    Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Most famous verse in the Bible. Does it say that whosoever has life shall have faith? NOPE, it says whosoever believeth should not perish BUT HAVE everlasting life. This shows believing as the cause, having life as the effect.

    ALL scripture supports this ORDER in every case, you cannot show otherwise.
     
  7. NetChaplain

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    I like this reasoning but in the same sense, Scripture is also void of a situation where one does not have faith in Christ apart from life.

    Though the chronology is unessential, there is instruction in knowing that initially, there exits more unbelief than belief (Mark 9:24), a situation which can be long term (Heb 5:12) and is commensurate with understanding. This is the reason why faith must be "added to" (2 Pet 1:5), through Scripture.
     
  8. Winman

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    It is not enough to simply "like" my reasoning, it is what the scriptures show 100% of the time. You cannot simply create your own doctrine. The scriptures ALWAYS show that a person must first believe to have life, and unless a person believes they shall not have life.

    Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    This verse says whosoever believes has life, but it also says whosoever believes not shall not see life. It shows believing is what determines whether a person has life or not, not the other way around as Calvinism falsely teaches.

    Scripture always teaches you must believe to have life. Calvinism teaches the exact opposite of what God's word says, Calvinism teaches you must have life to believe. This is falsehood and error.
     
  9. Winman

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    This is not correct, Jesus himself shows a person who is spiritually dead can believe, and when they do they shall be made alive.

    Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

    Does Jesus say the "living" shall hear his voice? NO, Jesus himself says the DEAD shall hear his voice, and those that will hear SHALL LIVE, that is, those who willingly hear God's word and believe shall be made alive. This being made alive occurs AFTER this spritually dead person willingly hears God's word.

    Baloney, the chronology is extremely important. Scripture ALWAYS shows that faith precedes regeneration. This makes it man's fault if he does not believe, because every man has this ability.

    If only a person who has been regenerated can believe, then it is God's fault if a man does not believe.

    The chronology is VERY important.
     
  10. NetChaplain

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    It's okay with me, but I believe you do not understand my comment
    concerning the irrelevancy of the "chronology." To believe either concept cannot prevent its reception.
     
  11. Winman

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    God does not give you faith, God enables you to believe.

    Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

    There is no other verse in scripture that directly address HOW a person can believe in Jesus more than Rom 10:14. Does Paul ask HOW any person can believe in Jesus unless they have been regenerated? NO, Paul does not say that here, or anywhere else in all of scripture, you cannot show it.

    No, Paul simply implies that a person must HEAR of Jesus to believe, and then Paul asks how a person can HEAR unless someone preaches to them. Nothing magical here, a person must simply hear the word of God preached to them to believe on Jesus. A person can choose to believe the gospel when he hears it, or he can choose not to believe the gospel. It is that simple.

    And further, Paul directly says faith comes from hearing the word of God.

    Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    No natural man simply walking around would ever conceive of the gospel in a million years. So, it is absolutely necessary to hear the preaching of the gospel to be able to believe it or not. That said, once a man hears the gospel, that is all he needs to either believe it or not.

    The scriptures do not teach that you have to be regenerated to believe the gospel, they teach the opposite, that you must believe the gospel to be regenerated.
     
    #11 Winman, Mar 23, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 23, 2013
  12. NetChaplain

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    As I've indicated before, and not to be contentious, believing (faith) is salvation.
     
  13. Winman

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    I would disagree, a person must believe to be saved, but faith is not salvation. Being saved is being made alive, being born again, being regenerated. This is a result of believing the gospel.

    Tell me, did Cornelius believe in God before the angel appeared to him and told him to send for Peter?

    Why did the angel tell Cornelius to send for Peter?

    Acts 11:13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
    14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

    Did Cornelius believe in God before the angel appeared to him? YES, and it is probable he had believed for many years as he was known and respected among all the Jews.

    But was he saved? NO. The angel told him to send for Peter whereby he would hear words where he and his household would be saved.

    Cornelius truly had faith and sincerely believed in God, but he was not saved until he heard and believed the gospel.
     
  14. NetChaplain

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    "It is the Spirit that quickens" (John 6:63); "through faith" (Eph 2:8).
     
  15. Chowmah

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    JOHN 14 [15] If ye love me, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS.[16] AND I WILL PRAY THE FATHER, AND HE SHALL GIVE YOU ANOTHER COMFORTER, that he may abide with you for ever;[17] Even THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.[18] I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.[19] Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.[20] At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.[21] HE THAT HATH MY COMMANDMENTS, AND KEEPETH THEM, HE IT IS THAT LOVETH ME: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I WILL LOVE HIM, AND WILL MANIFEST MYSELF TO HIM.

    Says what it says
     
  16. NetChaplain

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    Hi Chowmah - Everything you posted here can only be done through one who is already in Christ, for it requires the indwelling of Spirit to be obedient to God and Christ.
     
  17. Winman

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    That is EASILY proven false from scripture, Cornelius was very devout and feared God always. He was such a devout man that God sent an angel to appear to him to tell him how to be saved. But he did not receive the Holy Spirit until he heard Peter preach to him and his family.

    Acts 10:1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
    2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

    Acts 11:13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
    14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
    15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

    The story of Cornelius proves an unregenerate man without the indwelling Spirit can believe in God and be obedient to him. You have listened to the nonsense of the Calvinists.

    You can't simply make up your own doctrine, you must go by what the scriptures teach.
     
    #17 Winman, Mar 24, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 24, 2013
  18. NetChaplain

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    Win - Even though our belief's vary in many things, I do appreciate your replies because they are always applicable to truth seeking.

    Before the coming of Christ there were many devout men of God who He found favorable in His sight, but this was prior to the dispensation of the Gospel of grace. When John the Baptist and the Lord Jesus said "the kingdom was at hand," this meant it was near and the work of grace was about to be "finished" (John 19:30).

    Upon the arrival of the gospel of grace, favor with the Father is only through the born-again work of the Spirit--effected by Christ's work of the Cross.
     
  19. Winman

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    Cornelius was AFTER Jesus was crucified and risen. So was the Philipian jailer who was not saved and yet had a desire to seek God.

    No one had the indwelling Holy Spirit in the OT, yet many believed in God, and some were very obedient as Noah and Job.

    The disciples all believed on Jesus right after his first miracle, but they did not receive the indwelling Holy Spirit until after Jesus was risen from the dead over three years later.

    Jhn 2:11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

    Jhn 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

    Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

    You believe as the Calvinists do that a man without the Spirit cannot believe or obey God. There are NUMEROUS scriptures that easily refute this. Here you see the disciples all believed on Jesus after his first miracle, yet no believer had the indwelling Holy Spirit until after Jesus rose from the dead and was glorified.

    Now, you can believe the fiction of the Calvinists, or you can believe what the scriptures directly say and show, it is up to you.
     
  20. NetChaplain

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    Faith in God meant being right with Him during the pre-Cross dispensation. But now in the post-Cross dispensation of the offering of grace, faith in God means being right with Him in regeneration.

    Cornelius, as many were at that time, was unfamiliar with the Gospel of Christ and now grace being offered, it requires rebirth for favor with God and this is what Peter was doing--telling Cornelius "what thou ought to do" (Acts 10:6).

    This is why I believe one cannot be walking in faith in the Gospel of Christ and not be regenerated and that they are simultaneous in the grace dispensation.
     

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