“Keeping the Law”

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by NetChaplain, Jan 16, 2014.

  1. NetChaplain

    NetChaplain
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    God never intended for man to keep the Law, it was His way of revealing to man, not only His requirement for fellowship, but also the inability (even if desiring to) of the creature to do so. Perfect obedience to His will cannot be accomplished in the creature (man), in who dwells the sin nature (old man), even in regeneration.

    Perfect obedience to God will be the walk of the Christian in eternity because of the absence of the sin nature, which will involve the absence of all hindrances to man’s ability to obey Him perfectly—in the Spirit. Jesus was the only human who could keep the law perfectly because it required, not only an uninterruptence (even in thought) of outward compliance of actions (impossibility with a sin nature—Jam 2:10), but an inward holiness of intentions in all things (performed only out of divinity—Jesus). The outward keeping of the law could be keep by any human—but not perfectly—and that was the point.

    Jesus’ Law keeping was not so that His obedience would be accredited to the believer, but for Himself—for the qualifying of a perfect sacrifice, and it is the result of this atonement which is accredited (imputed) to the believer. Now, the believer’s obedience is in the life of Christ (Col 3:4) by the Spirit, and this is why godliness is imputed (not imparted due to the sin nature).

    -NC
     
  2. evangelist-7

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    You are a member of the correct forum for you.

    One reason we were given the Holy Spirit was to convict us of our sin (John 16:8).
    And He leads us to have the correct and acceptable heart attitude,
    which is to confess and repent of our sins ...

    1 John 1:7-10
    "But IF we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another,
    and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
    If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
    IF we confess (repent of) our sins, He is faithful and just
    to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
    If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."


    Methinks this is an age-old requirement of the Lord.

    Proverbs 28:13
    “He who covers his sins will not prosper,
    but whoever confesses and forsakes them will have mercy."


    It's all about co-operating to be sanctified unto holiness ... in preparation for heaven.
    Those who are unwilling to do this will be disqualified.
    Just like the Israelites who were left strewn all over the desert floor.

    .
     
    #2 evangelist-7, Jan 16, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 16, 2014
  3. kyredneck

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    I know the point you're making and agree that there is no law that could make alive, or Christ would not have had to die, but look at it from another scriptural viewpoint:

    ....the doers of the law shall be justified Ro 2:13

    8 Owe no man anything, save to love one another: for he that loveth his neighbor hath fulfilled the law.
    9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this word, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
    10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: love therefore is the fulfilment of the law. Ro 13

    All things therefore whatsoever ye would that men should do unto you, even so do ye also unto them: for this is the law and the prophets. Mt 7:12

    37 And he said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
    38 This is the great and first commandment.
    39 And a second like unto it is this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
    40 On these two commandments the whole law hangeth, and the prophets. Mt 22

    I believe every one of His redeemed born from above children have the ability to be 'doers of the law' in this respect, and that only because He 'writes that law upon our hearts'.
     
    #3 kyredneck, Jan 16, 2014
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  4. BobRyan

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    God fully intended Adam and Eve to obey.

    In John 14:15 before the cross - God says "Love Me and Keep My commandments".

    In Ex 20:6 God says "Love Me and Keep My Commandments".

    In 1John 5:1-4 the same point is made.

    In Rev 14:12 the saints are those who "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus".

    In 1John 2 the person that claims to know Christ and yet does not "keep His Commandments" is lying according to John.

    In Rom 3:31 Paul asks "do we then make VOID the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God"

    So "yes" God does expect us to "Keep His Commandments".

    But God never expected the lost to be able to Keep His Commandments.

    In Fact in Romans 8:6-8 we are told that the lost CANNOT keep the Law of God.

    For the lost - all the Law does (as Paul stated in Romans 3 and Galatians 3) is point out their lost state and their inability to KEEP God's Law.

    1 John 2
    4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

    Strong words even by my own standards on this board.

    1 John 5

    1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
    2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
    3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
    4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

    Notice that John minces no words about "Love God and keep Jesus's commandments" as if "Jesus' commandments" are opposed to "God's Commandments"

    Here is how Paul contrasts the ceremonial law with the Moral law of God - the Commandments of God.

    1Cor 7

    18 Was any man called when he was already circumcised? He is not to become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called in uncircumcision? He is not to be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the Commandments of God.

    So then Paul says that God does not expect us to keep the Ceremonial Law - and then contrasts that with the moral Law - the "Commandments of God".

    Again Paul never uses the term "The Commandments of Christ" as if Christ and God are somehow opposed or conflicted or negating each other.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #4 BobRyan, Jan 17, 2014
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  5. BobRyan

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    Romans 2:13-16 is interesting "It is not the HEARERS of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the law WILL be Justifed... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. evangelist-7

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    Yes, repeatedly, God says "Love Me and Keep My commandments".

    Yes, this is important to get as many rewards as possible after you are in heaven!
    Just ask any OSASer ... they'll confirm this every time.

    .
     
  7. NetChaplain

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    Allow me to share this from John Gill:

    "but the doers of the law, shall be justified"; by whom are meant, not such who merely literally and externally fulfil the law, as they imagine; for the law is spiritual, and regards the inward as well as the outward man, and requires internal holiness, as well as external obedience; and the apostle is speaking of justification before God, who sees the heart, and not before men, who judge according to outward appearance: nor are such designed who are imperfect doers of the law; for the law requires a perfect obedience, and what is not perfect is not properly righteousness; nor does it, nor can it consider an imperfect righteousness as a perfect one; for it accuses of, pronounces guilty, curses, and condemns for every transgression of it.

    "But such only can be intended, who are doers of it spiritually, internally, as well as externally, and that perfectly. Adam, in his state of innocence, was a perfect doer of the law; he sinning, and all his posterity in him, none of them are righteous, but all pass under a sentence of condemnation.

    "The best of men, even believers in Christ, are not without sin in themselves; and when any of the saints are said to be perfect, it must be understood in a comparative sense, or as they are considered in Christ.

    "There never was but one since Adam, and that is Christ, who has fulfilled, or could perfectly fulfil the law; the thing is impossible and impracticable for fallen man: hence these words must be understood either hypothetically, thus, not the hearers of the law, but if there were any perfect doers of it, they would be justified before God; or else of such persons who are considered in Christ, by whom the whole perfect righteousness of the law is fulfilled in them, and who may be reckoned as perfect doers of it in him, their substitute, surety, and representative."

    http://www.ewordtoday.com/comments/romans/gill/romans2.htm
     
  8. NetChaplain

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    Bob, I don't think it sensible for God to intend something He already foreknows will not transpire.

    If He knew they would disobey, even before He gave them the command, He could not intend anything different. It was just in that way God taught them, there was no other way.
     
  9. BobRyan

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    In that model - God becomes the cause of His own lament because all the evil and rebellion in history is laid at the feet of God who "intended it".

    I do not doubt that God knows all - but I don't think that the Bible claims God "intended evil" just because He foreknew it wold arrive. Any more than God "intends blasphemy against His own name" because He knows it will come and who it is that will do it.

    -----------------------

    By contrast in scripture God laments the case of the lost asking them "What more could I have done??".

    A parent that does not feed her children and then laments the poor health of the children is in fact the "Cause" of her own lament.

    In the same way God's complaint about the Lost is never "I did not intend for you to obey and yet you obeyed me anyway". Rather it is "I did not intend for you to be in rebellion, I did not intend for you to choose rebellion and death".

    "God is not WILLING that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" - 2Peter 3.

    1 Tim 2
    3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

    If all men are not saved - is it God that "did not intend it"?? Not according to scripture.

    If all men do not repent - is it God that "did not intend it"?? Not according to 2Peter 3.

    Acts 17: 30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent



    "God is declaring that all men everywhere should repent".
     
  10. NetChaplain

    NetChaplain
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    Instead of intend, "allowed" can be used, but it's not much different in purpose, it's the way He chose to teach us, or He would have done it differently.
     
  11. BobRyan

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    I agree that God "Allows' many things -- but not that he intended for those who blaspheme His Holy name - to be sure and do that act of Blasphemy. Intended carries with it intent, intention, choice. I may intend to drive my car to work - but I did not intend to run over that squirrel on the way to work.

    If a prophet were to tell me that if I drive to work today I will kill a squirrel - I will still go to work - not because I intend that the squirrel dies - rather I intend that I go to work.

    We cannot blame the actions of Satan as if God intended that Satan do as he does.

    God allows it. God is at war against Satan. God does not intend any evil at all according to James no one is tempted by God. Every good and perfect gift is from God the Father of Lights - with whom is no shifting shadow.

    God is not the author or cause of His own lament against the wicked.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. Iconoclast

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    NetChaplain

    sure he did...He told them to keep it

    the law had many purposes.
    In the first Adam...no..in the second adam ...yes...he was sinless and a perfect law keeper. His law keeping saves all the elect.

    The are not two natures in a man...only one. the new man is who believers are.

    the active obedience is put to the account of all believers.
    He did not have to qualify....He was prepared...
    5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

    We are called to obey now....as God works in us...

    12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

    13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
     
  13. DHK

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    Good Scripture Bob.
    God desires all men everywhere that they repent NOT that they keep the law. It doesn't say that does it? Repenting is not keeping the law--far from it.

    What does the Bible say about the purpose of the law?
    Who is the law for?

    1 Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
    10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

    When I got saved the Lord made me righteous. I have a righteous standing before Him. The law is not for me as a believer. What category do you stand in?
     
  14. BobRyan

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    So far so good "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments" Ex 20:6.
    "If you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15 - pre-cross.

    "Love God and KEEP His Commandments" 1John 5:1-4 post-cross.

    "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19 - post cross.

    And of course Spurgeon and the "Baptist Confession of Faith" would agree that this includes the TEN Commandments - as wall as Thomas Watson agreeing (And D.L. Moody and the Westminster Confession of Faith) as I am sure you know.

    There are two natures for the believer in Romans 7 the sinful nature is at war with the nature.

    In general I agree with your statements about God commanding us to Obey His Word.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. BobRyan

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    The bible says that the Law of God is part of the New Covenant and is "written on the heart and the mind" Heb 8 (and Jer 31:31-33).

    The bible says that the lost cannot keep the law of God - but the saved can.

    Rom 8
    6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


    There is no need to repeatedly circle back to the POV of the lost as they consider the Law of God. Look at the saints in Romans 8 instead of just being focused on how the Law confronts the lost.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. DHK

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    The Bible says that no man can keep the law.
    The Bible says that the law is not for the saved.

    1 Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
    10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

    If it is not for the righteous, then why is it a requirement for the saved to keep slavishly keep it. A man is justified by faith and not by the works of the law.
    Do you ever sin?
    Are you "in the flesh" when you sin?
    Are you in that category therefore that "cannot please God"?
    Or are you perfect? Which is it Bob?
    This verse has nothing to do with the keeping of the law.
    The title of the thread is "the Keeping of the Law," which you won't admit that you cannot do.
    In reality the only one who has ever kept the law is Christ.
    All of us are law-breakers. The purpose of the law is to show us that we are law-breakers, and thus we need to be released from the penalty that the law exacts from us. That is why Christ died. He paid in full the penalty for our crimes against God. We are criminals. Against a holy and righteous God we have broken His Law over and over and over again.
    Until we are ready to come to Christ and admit that to him there is no hope for salvation. Christ came to save sinners.

    Even after salvation, we remain sinners. The difference--we are sinners saved by grace. No man can keep the law.
     
  17. BobRyan

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    God fully intended Adam and Eve to obey.

    In John 14:15 before the cross - God says "if you Love Me Keep My commandments".

    In Ex 20:6 God says "Love Me and Keep My Commandments".

    In 1John 5:1-4 the same point is made.

    In Rev 14:12 the saints are those who "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus".

    In 1John 2 the person that claims to know Christ and yet does not "keep His Commandments" is lying according to John.

    In Rom 3:31 Paul asks "do we then make VOID the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God"

    So "yes" God does expect us to "Keep His Commandments".

    But God never expected the lost to be able to Keep His Commandments.

    In Fact in Romans 8:6-8 we are told that the lost CANNOT keep the Law of God.

    For the lost - all the Law does (as Paul stated in Romans 3 and Galatians 3) is point out their lost state and their inability to KEEP God's Law.

    1 John 2
    4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

    Strong words even by my own standards on this board.

    1 John 5

    1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
    2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
    3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
    4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

    Notice that John minces no words about "Love God and keep Jesus's commandments" as if "Jesus' commandments" are opposed to "God's Commandments"

    Here is how Paul contrasts the ceremonial law with the Moral law of God - the Commandments of God.

    1Cor 7

    18 Was any man called when he was already circumcised? He is not to become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called in uncircumcision? He is not to be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the Commandments of God.

    So then Paul says that God does not expect us to keep the Ceremonial Law - and then contrasts that with the moral Law - the "Commandments of God".




    Indeed - so then what a surprise to get all this ad hominem posting in response to the Bible texts given above.

    Give me sola scriptura over ad hominem any day.

    But of course - some will not go for that.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. BobRyan

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    You love to "quote you" when you circle back to what Paul calls the Pov of the lost in Romans 8.

    By contrast Heb 8 says that under the New Covenant the Law of God is "written on the heart and mind" of the saints.

    And Paul says to the saints "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19 contrasting it to the ceremonial law.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. DHK

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    But they didn't.
    This is not a reference to "the law." You take it out of context.
    You don't keep it; you can't keep it. Are you willing to admit that yet?
    A total non-sequitor. This passage speaks of faith and overcoming the world by faith; not the law.
    Another non-sequitor. This is during the Tribulation. Believers have already been raptured, and therefore the command is not to believers. Thus a different meaning is in view.
    The commandments of Christ is not "the law."
    Thus, another non-sequitor.
    The law of God is established, not to be kept but rather to point us to Christ. You haven't considered the entire passage.
    What is the penalty for murder in your state? Or do the lost get off scott free because they are not expected to keep it?
    Neither can you. Check James 2:10; Gal.3:10.
    It does the same thing for you. You cannot keep the law either.

    Christ walked a perfect and sinless walk or life. Do you?

    1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
    Jesus is God, and yet the emphasis on the commands of Christ, not the OT law. Again, another non-sequitor--something out of context.

    By your own admission the "keeping of these commandments of God" is ceremonial, which we are not bound to keep. Thus you keep quoting this verse out of its context. It is not relevant.

    You have not demonstrated at all that we should keep the law. In fact you have defeated your own arguments.

    Do you keep the law; all the law; all the time?
    Can you answer that truthfully?
     
  20. BobRyan

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    By "contrast" we have the actual Bible.

    In Rev 14:12 the saints are those who "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus".

    In 1John 2 the person that claims to know Christ and yet does not "keep His Commandments" is lying according to John.

    4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

    In Rom 3:31 Paul asks "do we then make VOID the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God"


    1 John 5
    2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
    3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

    And of course for those who want to circle back to the view of the Law that the lost have - Paul reminds us in Romans 8 what that is..

    Rom 8
    6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

    Bottom line here is that while I can't offer very much ranting -- I can offer the Word of God on this subject to be considered by the objective unbiased readers.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #20 BobRyan, Jan 24, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 24, 2014

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