1 Corinthians 14:34

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by SueLyn, Sep 19, 2001.

  1. SueLyn

    SueLyn
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    I have been trying to understand something for some time now and I truly hope I can get some help with this from others on this board.
    I was raised in Central Oklahoma, in a fundamental Baptist Church. In this church and at home taught by my parents, I was told it is wrong for a woman to speak during the sermon. 1 Corinthians 14:34 In this church I was raised, from the time I was born until after I had graduated from high school, men would always say “Amen” in agreement with the pastor while he gave his sermons. There was one little old lady that attended church there and she would do this also, but I was told she wasn’t right mentally, and to just over look her. The time frame for this was in the 60’s and 70’s. And I had friends that attended other Baptist churches in the area, mostly southern Baptist, I would visit with them at their church sometimes and it seemed the same was true at their churches also.
    This past Easter I visited my parents church, after services there is a large lunch for the members and their guests, so I was there to be with my parents. This is the same town I was raised in, just a different church. I assumed this church was an independent Baptist church, not fundamental. During the music specials before the sermon, there was a woman sitting in front of us, she started raising her hands in the air and, I assume, was praying. After the service I asked my Mother about this woman and, for a lack of other words, she corrected me. She said there was nothing wrong with this woman doing that, she was a very nice woman and had been visiting the church since she was in Oklahoma taking care of her Mother, and she actually lived in Tennessee. I told my Mother I just didn’t realize that independent Baptist churches was okay with this type of thing and she told me their church was fundamental not independent. Now I’m 43 years old and my mother is 75 years old, she still works full time, 40 hours a week. But I never argue with my mother or question whatever she says to me, it’s just fruitless to me. When my husband got home from work that evening I told him about this and he agreed with my mother that there was nothing wrong with what the woman had done. My husband was raised in the same town as I was, but went to a different church, a freewill Baptist church. I asked him if the church he was raised in had done this and he said he seemed to remember that some members of the church did. In the past few months I’ve thought and prayed about this because in all honesty, what this woman did made me feel uncomfortable. This is not the first time I’ve seen this type of thing in a Baptist church, this is just the one instance I’m referring to. Also in the past 10 to 15 years I’ve noticed that people will applaud after music special, this is something I had always thought was wrong too. You applaud at sports events or at the school auditorium but not at church. Even when it is done at my church, I don’t because it also makes me feel uncomfortable. I now live in a small town 30 miles from the town I was raised in, we attend church in this small town, it is a southern Baptist church but it is totally obvious that the Bible teachings and doctrines I was taught while growing up are still very much with me. Why is something that wouldn’t be okay 25 or 30 years ago, is it okay now? Have I misunderstood what 1 Corinthians 14:34 means? Is there something wrong with me that I shouldn’t feel uncomfortable when these types of instances happen around me? Please, don’t believe I’m putting down this woman or any other person for doing what she did. This is not what I’m writing about, I just feel I need some light shed on this, to help me understand.
    :confused:
    Sue
     
  2. Macbaby

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    I believe it is always good to question eveything. I read your message and I understand your concern. 1 Corithians 14 is the toungues chapter. It is talking about when they spoke in toungues (which has stopped, but that's another topic all in itself). The Bible is not saying women cannot speak in church. 1 Cor. 11:5 even shows women prayed and prophesied in public worship. Chapters 12-14 show women having spiritual gifts and encouraged to use them in the body of Christ. My church doesn't clap after a music performance. They don't believe clapping is bad or sinful. It is just, when someone is worshipping in song, are they entertaining man or God? That is all there is to it.
     
  3. myreflection26

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    hmmm...actually there's not alot women can't do in church. Ours sings, speaks (yes in front on the congregation :eek: ) and yes we even speak in tounges :eek: oh my goodness NOOOOOOOO :rolleyes: anyway, don't be afraid to shout amen and yes our women shout that out too. GO GIRL

    Sue
     
  4. Roy

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    Sue - I can Identify with your concern over applause in the church. It is done in so many SBC churches today whereas up until the late 70's, it was almost never done. If a choir or individual singers are singing unto the Lord, it is my feeling that applause stands to rob those singers of their reward if they begin to bask in the praise of men. Applause is a type of revelry and better suited for secular entertainment than church worship.

    Lots of things have changed in church today.
    Song services last forever, and preaching has been cut way back in many congregations.
    Many crowds prefer singing cute little ditties instead of the old hymns, which I think is a real shame. The old hymns are full of power and inspiration. Revivals generally last two or three days instead of a week, and if the evangelist can't sing, toot a flute, or WOW a crowd in other ways he may have a hard time finding a church that will let him preach. What a pity.

    [ September 21, 2001: Message edited by: roy ]
     
  5. Dr. Bob

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by myreflection26:
    Our [women] sing, speak (yes in front on the congregation) and yes we even speak in tounges.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Am I reading this right? This is a Baptist-only Forum and discussing Baptist church issues and Sue your church has women preaching and speaking in tongues?

    I think airline security needs to check your credentials as a "baptist". :eek: And I would appreciate knowing what "baptist" church allows speaking in tongues?

    Seriously, please privately email me the name of your church so I can discreetly check this out. It is new to me! (I won't mention your name or where I'm coming from, so don't worry)
     
  6. ellis

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    I attended a Southern Baptist university a few years back, and was invited to go to a friend's home in Dallas, Texas over Thanksgiving. His church was Southern Baptist, the worship was very contemporary and people raised their hands. I distinctly heard a few people speak in an unintelligible language and when I asked about it afterward, I was told that it was "prayer language".

    I found out later that there is a movement in some Baptist and Bible churches, including some Southern Baptists and Bible Baptists, into a sort of "tongues" speaking in worship via what they call "prayer language". There is even a book out, called "The Word and Power Church" by Doug Bannister, who is from an Evangelical Free Church in Knoxville, Tennessee that talks about this movement, which blends the strong Biblical background of Baptists and conservative evangelicals with the experiential worship and spiritual "giftedness" of the Charismatic movement. Their are a number of Baptist churches in the Mid-south and upper midwest who claim to be experiencing a real "revival" as part of this movement.

    As far as women serving in the church, I have always been taught that God calls women to service just as he calls men. My own church has had women as staff members, including a long time associate pastor. We have always believed that the Bible does not put forward any prohibition of women serving in this capacity, since these are servant leaders and not authoritative leaders. Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers--not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eagar to serve; not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. I Peter 5:2-3

    I agree that the context of women keeping silence had to do with the speaking in tongues, because the same author, Paul, says in I Corinthians that women can pray or prophesy in the church as long as her head is covered. She could serve in a leadership authority without usurping the authority of any men because the only authority in the church comes from its head, Jesus, and its written word, the Bible.

    Being Baptist is not determined by what other Baptists think you are, because being Baptist does not give that authority to anyone outside your local church. Therefore, you are Baptist if that is what you choose and determine yourself to be, not according to what doctrine you believe or what your practice of the faith may look like. I am sure there are people who post on this board who would observe the worship or Bible study or weekly routines of my church and decide that we are not Baptist because we probably would not fit their definition. But we are Baptist because we have determined and defined ourselves as Baptists, based around soul freedom, Bible freedom and church freedom, not on what others may think.

    [ September 22, 2001: Message edited by: ellis ]
     
  7. Michael Wrenn

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    Ellis,

    AMEN!!! Right on, brother!
     
  8. myreflection26

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    Bob,

    I don't think so. The leaders in my church certainly have enough irons in the fire without having religiosity issues to deal with too. In case ya didn't know it, there are baptist who do speak in tounges, ever heard of John Hagge? Yeppers he's one of them.

    Oh, and let me get this straight, this thread is a denominational thread yet only baptist are wanted here? Hate to tell ya but thats not denominational,,,thats baptist only and completely contradictory.

    Sue
     
  9. Ars

    Ars
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    Sue,
    This thread is indeed for Baptists only. That is denominations within the Baptist faith. Baptist is not a denomination. So, it is not contradictory. If I may direct you to the following post by the Webmaster. Baptist Board Posting Rules Pay particular to rule #2

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Rule #2: We offer a wide range of forums. Most are for BAPTISTS only, to post opinions, views, beliefs and ideas. We also have a few "FREE FOR ALL" Forums for NON-BAPTISTS, with pertinent topics that relate to everyone. Friendly nonmembers are invited to listen or participate as they desire, in the appropriate forums.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    So, if you are not a Baptist, you are free to post in the "FREE FOR ALL" Forums. The Baptist section is for Baptist to discuss their views, opinions etc. It is not for people of other faiths to try and impose, slip in their beliefs, doctrines and/or false teachings.

    You also mentioned that John Hagee. Looking into his ministry, no where does it mention, allude to, or state that he is, was or is associated with the Baptist faith in anyway.

    As for "Charismatic Baptists", the so-called Charismatic Baptists are False Baptists. There are no Baptist Charismatics and no Charismatic Baptists. Once a person or church becomes Charismatic, they desert Baptist doctrine and thus cease to be Baptists. They may still try to wear the name, but that does not make them Baptists. There may be a few Baptists on this board who disagree with me on this issue, however, I am very firm in my belief that speaking in tongues avails nothing but self edification. It does, in no way, edify the Lord. It brings attention upon the speaker and nothing else. You may say that it is a sign of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I say it is a sign of a spirit, but not the Holy Spirit.

    [ September 22, 2001: Message edited by: Dajuid ]
     
  10. ellis

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    I strongly disagree with the previous post. Being "Baptist" is not a denominational perspective. Baptists are a family of denominations based on Bible freedom, Soul freedom and Church freedom. Therefore, the determination of what is or is not Baptist is not based on what doctrine a church accepts or does not accept. It is based on how a church practices its faith.

    Many Baptists, including some in my own church, have an anti-Charismatic bias because they operate under some false impressions of what Charismatics do, and what they believe. Being "Charismatic" is as broad and diverse an umbrella as being Baptist. There are some places where there is overlap. Not all Charismatics believe that all believers should speak in tongues. Their emphasis is on spiritual giftedness. In some cases, it comes out in excess, which is a human tendency. But in Baptist life, there are also excesses, such as the tendency to self-appoint as guardians of "true and pure doctrine".

    Many Charismatics I know take the scripture very seriously and believe they are within its boundaries when they avoid the excesses they are often accused of. They focus on I Corinthians 14:39, which says "Therefore my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. They offer just as much Biblical evidence to support their view as Baptists who believe in the doctrine of cessation, which has very weak Biblical support.

    As I mentioned previously, I have attended churches, on one or two occasions, who choose deliberately to define themselves as Baptist because of their stand on local church autonomy and priesthood of the believer but who also teach and emphasize ALL of the gifts of the spirit, including having a few members who speak in tongues. And while you may hold the personal opinion that they aren't Baptist, or that they have ceased being Baptist, that does not mean that they are not. To make a statement that someone or some church is not Baptist, based on a personal perception, is not Baptist.

    [ September 22, 2001: Message edited by: ellis ]
     
  11. Dr. Bob

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ellis:
    I strongly disagree with the previous post. Being "Baptist" is not a denominational perspective. Baptists are a family of denominations based on Bible freedom, Soul freedom and Church freedom. Therefore, the determination of what is or is not Baptist is not based on what doctrine a church accepts or does not accept. It is based on how a church practices its faith.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That is simply a wrong definition, Ellis. That is NOT a "baptist". You just described a Catholic or a Mormon or almost every denomination or religion who claim "bible freedom, soul freedom and church freedom" to do whatever they want to do.

    This probably is a basis for problems within the SBC. Some on the BB have taken shots at the BF&M doctrinal statement of agreement. To have a group of churches with a meaningful title, there MUST be agreement.

    Not just that we "dunk" or that we have "soul liberty", but that we have a "Confession of Faith" in agreement with the historic limits of Baptists.

    Otherwise you could believe "every wind of doctrine" and still CALL yourself a Baptist. Oh wait, some on the BB certainly do . . .
     
  12. ellis

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    It looks to me like we already have a wide diversity of doctrine in churches that call themselves "Baptist".

    Your phrase "every wind of doctrine" is well taken. But my phrase "in their practice of the faith" is a preclusion to non-Christian teachings coming in, such as those of Mormonism. Arguments of this sort always use the "from one extreme to another" evidence to support the tendency to set narrow standards, which are usually based on the personal experience and perspective of the standard setter.

    Bible freedom is not just "whatever you want to believe", it is a principle that is grounded in the community of faith, centered around the Biblical principle of discipleship. It is not based on majority opinion, or authoritarian leadership, but on a community of believers that is submitted to each other and led by the Holy Spirit.

    Church freedom means the church is independent and autonomous. I see this first of all as a very clear indication that one Baptist does not speak for all Baptists, and that no Baptist can define another Baptist by his own definition. It is defined by the community of believers who are led by the Holy Spirit and guided by the scriptures.

    I have been in the same Baptist church all my life, and it is a church that can trace its heritage beyond its more than 100 years of existence, through mother, grandmother and great-grandmother congregations all the way back to the First Baptist Church in Providence, RI. There is an older gentleman in my church who grew up in it as well who often says that his "bone marrow" is Baptist. We have started, out of our own congregation, more than twenty other Baptist churches over the years. Yet, we have never insisted that the way we do things, and the doctrinal positions taken by our church, must be the defining parameters of any other Baptist church.

    If you tell another church they're not Baptist because of a doctrine they hold or a practice they engage in, it is just your opinion of what truth is, and we do not trust in man's opinion.

    By the way, in checking with a friend of mine who pastors a local Southern Baptist church, I was informed of what the BF&M 2000 is (I didn't know until I read about it here). I also learned that only half of the SBC state convention bodies have adopted it, and only about 10 percent of the SBC churches have adopted it. The most prevalent "confession of faith" in the SBC is "no creed", followed by the 1963 Baptist Faith and Message. So even in a single Baptist denomination, there is not universal agreement on a "confession of faith", which convinces me that the SBC is genuinely Baptist.

    [ September 22, 2001: Message edited by: ellis ]
     
  13. myreflection26

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    Well however you want to run your board :rolleyes: even if it is contradictory and it very much is. Fact is I didn't push anything on anyone, all I did was mention what we do in our church and for that matter it was very brief.

    You all really need to name this thread something different because DENOMINATINONAL means just that other denominations outside of baptist not just baptist denomination. I think that needs to be a clearer understanding.

    Sue
     
  14. Jamal5000

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    1 Corinthains 14:34 sits in the middle of a discussion grounded in another long past civilization from what I have learned and studied.

    Remember that was Corinth, a BIGtime Roman city with an importance equivalent the Detroit of today. Both Jews and Romans lived there. Though different cultures, they both believed in an age old idea: the silence of women.

    When Paul was instructing this church, he had to think like them in order to properly frame the truth of the Gospel so that they could understand it and apply it to their current living.

    Therefore, he explained the well-grounded community custom of female submission within the scheme of the Gospel in a way that would not offend the Corinthians while still telling them the truth.

    This day and time it does not apply now because of our now egalitarian society. If Paul were living now, he would explain this same topic of orderly worship without offending this equal gender rights ideal.


    I hope this helps a little bit.

    Keep Smilin'

    [​IMG]
     

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