1 John 1:9 New Living Translation

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Deacon, Apr 12, 2008.

  1. Deacon

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    This is a bit of a technical question for those fluent in NT Greek.
    This may be simple but my Greek just isn't good enough.

    My Saturday morning men study group is beginning to work through 1 John.

    We recently discussed 1 John 1:9

    If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
    NASB95

    I noticed a insertion in the NLT’s rendition of 1 John 1:9 that doctrinally clarifies the meaning of text

    But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness.
    NLT

    I wondered if perhaps there might be a similar insertion in any Greek manuscripts.

    The Greek text reads:

    Ἐὰν ὁμολογῶμεν τὰς ἁμαρτίας ἡμῶν, πιστός ἐστιν καὶ δίκαιος ἵνα ἀφῇ ἡμῖν τὰς ἁμαρτίας, καὶ καθαρίσῃ ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ πάσης ἀδικίας.
    textus receptus/Majority/NA27

    A variant noted among a diverse grouping of manuscripts reads:

    Ἐὰν ὁμολογῶμεν ἡμῖν τὰς ἁμαρτίας ἡμῶν, πιστός ἐστιν καὶ δίκαιος ἵνα ἀφῇ ἡμῖν τὰς ἁμαρτίας, καὶ καθαρίσῃ ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ πάσης ἀδικίας.
    [Alex: ‭א Ψ 81 Alex/Byz: C 2464 West: 614 630 1505 1852 vgcl vgww Byz: 623 al ?: syr]

    I’m wondering if this variant supports the reading found in the NLT.

    Rob
     
  2. TCGreek

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    Diakonos, I also looked at my NA27 and it has no variant reading for "him."

    But I don't see it as a problem.

    "Him" becomes the indirect object and is even seen in the fact that the one we're confessing to "He is faithful and righteous."

    The NLT is just doing its thing but good. :thumbs:
     
    #2 TCGreek, Apr 12, 2008
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  3. webdog

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    On a side note, for those holding to limited atonement, if atonement = fogiveness as I see argued here on the BB...what do you do with this passage in 1 John?
     
  4. TCGreek

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    Webdog, "we" seems to be referring only to believers.
     
  5. webdog

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    I realize that, but if atonement = forgiveness, why do "we" need to ask forgiveness if Christ already forgave the sins of the "elect"?
     
  6. TCGreek

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    Whether a person holds to unconditional election or not, the question must be answered.

    And I believe it has to do with maintaining a good fellowship with God as v. 7 points out.

    While the spirit of a believer has been redeemed and renewed, the flesh hasn't, so we still deal with sin.

    We are awaiting the redemption of our bodies (Rom 8:23).

    If I'm not mistaken, I believe you believe this too about the body.
     
  7. webdog

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    So you are saying the atonement does equal forgiveness? I'm not clear on your view. If the text is dealing with fellowship, why does it state "He will forgive us of our sins and cleanse us..."?

    It is falsely stated that if universal atonement is true...everyone is saved, because the atonemnt is forgiveness. I don't see how the "L" crowd can reconcile this verse with their belief that the atonement is automatic forgiveness.
     
  8. Deacon

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    My question deals with whether there was a tendency to alter the Greek text to clarify a meaning.
    Historically, confession could be a ritual that one would perform before a priest.

    I see the NLT’s translation as an insertion that clarifies the text’s meaning.
    It affirms what I believe and what I believe the original author meant.

    I wondered if there were any Greek transcribers that clarified the text in a fashion similar to the NLT.

    Variants not noted in the NA27 text can be found at the site gb93433 recently mentioned:

    New Testament Transcripts Prototype [LINK]

    or at laparola // The Word [LINK]

    Rob
     
  9. TCGreek

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    Christ as our atoning sacrifice has satisfied the wrath of God by removing our sin that condemned us before God.

    Yet we still need to ask forgiveness. I believe for the believer that this asking of forgiveness is only in relation to God as our Father and not Judge.

    Sin messes up the fellowship, so we need to get it out of the way through confession.
     
  10. TCGreek

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    Rob, I don't see the NLT's use of "him" as an "insertion."

    "Him" is clearly implies by the use of homologew and its object, so that "him" become the indirect object.

    Whether a translator wants to bring out that sublety, is a judgment call on readability.
     
  11. Deacon

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    Thanks TC,

    What would the extra pronoun in the phrase, "ἡμῖν τὰς ἁμαρτίας ἡμῶν" add?

    Rob
     
    #11 Deacon, Apr 12, 2008
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  12. TCGreek

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    The phrase is quite awkward: "To us our sins"
     
  13. Deacon

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    Could the variant be rendered:

    "If we confess to each other our sins..."

    Expressly different from the NLT

    Many thanks!!!

    Rob
     
  14. TCGreek

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    Now I got you!

    When you isolated the phrase like that, I didn't get it.

    In that case hemin would be used for allelwn, which is used in v. 7.

    Why didn't John stick with allelwn?
     
  15. Deacon

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    It is a insignificant variant afterall. John didn't write it!

    After checking the Greek text, the variant is probably a dittographic err from a phrase later in the same verse.

    Ἐὰν ὁμολογῶμεν [ἡμῖν] τὰς ἁμαρτίας ἡμῶν, πιστός ἐστιν καὶ δίκαιος ἵνα ἀφῇ ἡμῖν τὰς ἁμαρτίας, καὶ καθαρίσῃ ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ πάσης ἀδικίας.
    1 John 1:9

    Rob
     
    #15 Deacon, Apr 12, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 12, 2008
  16. gb93433

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    1 John 1:9 is a third class conditional sentence. It is the idea that if we keep on confessing our sins to God and to one another as stated in both 1Jn 1:9, James 5:16, and Mark 1:5. It is a statement of a probable future.

    The final subjunctive of purpose clause introduced by hina is used to introduce a purpose clause. It is the idea of confessing your sins so that you can be forgiven.
     
  17. TCGreek

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    A dittographic error indeed!
     

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