1 John 2:2

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Rippon, Jan 4, 2007.

  1. Rippon

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    The book of 1 John has a lot of content which is also in the Gospel of John -- no surprise there for most of you . But I think it is instructive to note the comparison between 1 John 2:2 and John 11:51,52 .

    Note these parallels : 1 John, " He is the propitiation for OUR ( Jewish ) sins " ; John , that Jesus " should die for the NATION ( Jews ) . First John , " and not for ours only" ; John , " and not for the nation only. " First John , " but also for the whole world " ( Gentiles ) : John, " but that He might gather into one the children of god who are scattered abroad " ( Gentiles ) . " Those who are scattered abroad " would seem to be the " other sheep " of John 10:16 , who are Gentiles ! Thus the OUR is Jewish Christians by all that lends evidence .
    ( Appendix p.27 ,by Curtis Crenshaw in A.A. Hodges " The Atonement " .)
     
    #1 Rippon, Jan 4, 2007
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  2. Rippon

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    Continuing In Crenshaw

    BUT ALSO ( alla kai) . This continues the preceding thought in the initial clause of the verse , that is , that Christ is the penal satisfaction for our sins and also for others . What he IS to "us," He IS to the "whole world ". Now this does not sayHe is potentially the propitiation for the whole world , or that He will become their propitiation , but that He IS NOW the propitiation for the whole world . If He is their propitiation , then they are saved -- period !

    Someone may object that if Christ's death saved the elect even before they were born , then why do they need to believe ? The answer is simple -- they are not saved in their experience until the Spirit works faith in them . As EPH. 1 so beautifully explains it , the elect were saved by the Father's choice of them (1:4,5 ), they were saved in their experience when the Holy Spirit applied the atonement (1:13,14) ! ... Does Christ's death merit and guarantee our faith , or does our faith merit the value of his death and guarantee its effectualness ? Did Jesus do everything for some , or something for every person ? It must be the former ! " But that's discrimination ! " some will retort . Of course it is , God is not democratic , He's autocratic ! He dispenses His grace to whom He wills ( Rom.9:16-18 ) . ( Pages 27,28 )
     
  3. Rippon

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    Crenshaw Quotes A.W. Pink's Sov. Of God (p.318)

    If the "whole world " signifies the whole human race , then the first clause and the 'also" in the second clause are absolutely meaningless . If Christ is the propitiation for everybody ; it would be idle tautology to say , first , " He is the propitiation for 'our' sins and 'also' for everybody ." There could be no 'also" if He is the propitiation for the entire human family .
     
  4. Rippon

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    An Oldie,but goodie

    This pertains to another current thread.
     
  5. convicted1

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    Greek word for "He" in 1 John 2:2 autos

    1) himself, herself, themselves, itself

    2) he, she, it

    3) the same



    "Propitiation": hilasmos

    1) an appeasing, propitiating

    2) the means of appeasing, a propitiation


    "For": peri

    1) about, concerning, on account of, because of, around, near



    "OUR" : hēmōn

    1) our, we, us notice the three words are all plural pronouns


    "Whole": holos

    1) all, whole, completely


    "World": kosmos

    1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government

    2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:3

    3) the world, the universe

    4) the circle of the earth, the earth


    5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family

    6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ

    7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly

    a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ

    8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

    a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)



    Well, according to how this is written in Greek, it says what it says, that He is the propitiation for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD!!! Nothing needs to be added to or taken from this for it to mean what it means....ya know what I mean, Jelly Bean??

    i am I AM's!!

    Willis
     
  6. Martin Marprelate

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    That is not what it means because, as I just posted on another thread the words 'The sins of' are not in the Greek. The words are in italics in the KJV, showing that they are an interpolation, and not there at all in the NKJV.

    So our Lord is the propitiation for the whole world. What does that mean? Well, check out Gen 3:17; 5:28; Rom 8:19-24, and Rev 22:3. On the cross, Christ made atonement, not just for our sins, but for the world that was cursed in Adam, so that the curse can be taken away when He returns.

    I don't insist on this interpretation, but it seems to hold together.

    Steve
     
    #6 Martin Marprelate, Feb 17, 2011
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  7. J.D.

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    As I've heard it said, "all means all and that's all there is to it!".

    However, I find many if not most instances of "all" and "whole" and "world" to mean something other than every person that ever lived without exception.
     
  8. webdog

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    I have a thread asking about the atonement and the curse as viewed through the limited atonement view, and not many bit. I'm glad to see you at least see the propitiation as being done to remove the curse and death. Unfortunately for your view, this cannot be done without first removing the very thing that caused it...sin. Christ died not for the sins of the "elect" alone, but for sin as a whole.
     
  9. Martin Marprelate

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    Christ died as a propitiation for 'oursins.' He was writing to Christians. But He also died as a propitiation for the whole world. Now if that means 'all the people in the world' then God is propitiated towards all the people in the world and we must all become universalists. What it means IMO is that God is propitiated to the earth that was cursed in Adam, so that at the reconstitution of all things, the curse will be lifted.

    Steve
     
  10. DHK

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    Darby:
    "and *he* is the propitiation for our sins; but not for ours alone, but also for the whole world." (1 John 2:2)

    I purchased a gift for my son; but not for him alone, but also for the whole family.

    You don't seem to know what you are talking about, and can't comprehend simple English much less Greek.

    The verse makes complete sense no matter which way you read. Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world just as the Bible states. If you have such a hard time believing the Bible you should take it up with God. You dance around the Bible, try to insert irrelevant passages, etc. but the truth is the truth, unalterable, immutable, unchangeable, and like the Jews who resisted the Holy Spirit you resist the teaching of the Word of God here also.

    And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2)
    --What makes it so difficult for you to comprehend?

    And it came to pass that all the world should be taxed?
    But whose world? It was Caesar's world.
    --For that poster to equate Caesar to Christ is blasphemous.
    Caesar has his empire and Christ has his.

    Christ said: "MY kingdom is not of this world." No, his kingdom transcends all ages and incorporates all believers, all who have freely believed on Him by faith, for he is the propitiation for all the sins of all the people of all the world of all time. And all who believe in him shall have all their sins forgiven: past, present, and future.
     
  11. webdog

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    Scripture tells us the veil of the curse covers all people. You cannot have Christ dying for sins of some people, but at the same time remove the curse from the universe.

    Isaiah 25:7-8 On this mountain he will destroy
    the shroud that enfolds all peoples,
    the sheet that covers all nations;
    he will swallow up death forever.
    The Sovereign LORD will wipe away the tears
    from all faces;

    Application of the blood is what saves, as with the OT passover, not the death in itself. At any rate, you have shown limited atonement is a fallacy as it was not for just the elect.
     
    #11 webdog, Feb 17, 2011
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  12. Martin Marprelate

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    Yes I can! It was the earth itself that was cursed in Gen 3:17, and it is the earth itself that will have the curse removed as per Rev 22:3. But not all people will live on that redeemed earth, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life (Rev 21:27). They are the ones for whom Christ shed His blood.
    Amen! :godisgood: Does not death affect all peoples right now? But those who come to the New Jerusalem (and only they) are spared the Second Death (Rev 20:14-15) and live forever with God.
    Not sure what you're getting at here, but there can be no application of blood without a death.

    Steve
     
  13. webdog

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    The curse cannot be lifted without God's wrath being appeased. Even your soteriology teaches this as it states man is paying for their own sins in Hell due to God's wrath not being appeased.
    Yes, but the day of the Lord has not happened yet. God's wrath has been appeased against the elect...so why do they still die? God's wrath has been appeased against sin, hence Jesus stating "it is finished" and the temple curtain being torn in two allowing for man to approach God.
    True, but death does not mean automatic application as what limited atonement teaches. The OT high priest made the atonement on behalf of the whole nation of Israel which included believer and unbeliever alike.
     
  14. DHK

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    If you are speaking of the MK, I don't believe that. The curse will be removed but there will be many unsaved. Previous to the MK there will be seven years Tribulation. Not all will be killed. Some unsaved will enter into the Kingdom. In fact enough will enter in that in their progeny there will be enough that when Satan will be let loose he will be able to gather enough unsaved to unite together in one last uprising against Christ. However fire from God will come down and consume them.

    And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. (Revelation 20:7-9)
     
  15. Osage Bluestem

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    Regarding Particular Atonement:

    --CH Spurgeon

    Link: http://www.banneroftruth.org/pages/articles/article_detail.php?41
     
  16. DHK

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  17. Osage Bluestem

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    Just showing you that there is a highly respected pastor who is very biblical who explains what 1 John 2:2 can't mean.
     
  18. DHK

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    But he didn't show that did he? He simply stated an opinion without backing it up. Just because the name is well known doesn't make the opinion correct.

    What is God's will?
    (God) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4)

    God's will is that all men will be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth. That is what it says, and that is what it means. It is written very clearly.

    Let me give you an example before I go on.
    What is my will as a father?
    My will is that all my children go into full time service for the Lord.
    Will that happen?
    No. They have a free will which they were born with. They cannot be forced to do the work of the Lord full time. They must choose of their own free will to go into the ministry. And before that they must choose to be saved. They must choose Christ. I cannot force any of this on them. It is nevertheless my will that they be saved and serve the Lord full time.

    What happened?
    It looks like only one of them will be going into the Lord's work full time.
    Did I fail? No, I don't think so. They have a free will and will choose to serve God in other capacities of their lives.

    Did God fail?
    No, God never fails. He created man in the image and likeness of Himself, which meant giving man a free will to choose good and evil; to choose Christ or reject Him. He is not going to force man into salvation. Man, of his own free will, must choose Christ.

    God is willing that all men should be saved, but not all will be saved?
    Why? Because of the depravity of the human heart. Man rebels against God, and is free to tell God, NO. And that is what happens, despite what God's will is. God's will is not always accomplished because of the sinfulness of mankind.

    You know that and I know that.
    "on earth as it is in heaven."
    The problem is that oft times you do not do God's will on earth as it is done in heaven. Am I correct?
    God's will is not done, not even in your own life. Why would you expect it to be done in the lives of the unsaved?
     
  19. Rippon

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    You need to R-E-A-D more closely.The quote was from A.W.Pink.

    That seems to be your favorite phrase these days.

    So you don't like comparing Scripture with Scripture. That's a bad problem for you.

    I agree wholeheartedly.


    It is difficult for you becaus of your tradition.

    As I have tried so patiently tried to explain to you -- Christ,as the propitiatory sacrifice was not only for those among the Jewish nation but for many children of God scattered around the world. His sacrifice was an international one. Christ died for folks among all nations,tribes, and languages. But He did not appease His father's warath for all without exception.

    That's from the DHK Arminian translation.
     
  20. DHK

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    for he is the propitiation for all the sins of all the people of all the world of all time. And all who believe in him shall have all their sins forgiven: past, present, and future.

    It is a Biblical truth which you have no argument against.
     

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