1 or 2 point calvinist ?

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by mrfsw, Dec 25, 2002.

  1. mrfsw

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    I have been doing some reading both of various preachers, pastors, and authors and of the Word of God. (KJV). I was wondering is it possible for an independant fundamental baptist to be a 1 or 2 point calvinist. those points being perserverance or as we like to say eternal security. And the other one would be maybe total depravity. Let me know what you people think and wheather you think I am whacko or not.
     
  2. KenH

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    If one believes in total depravity, then I don't understand why someone would not believe the other four points as well as they flow from the doctrine of total depravity and are the necessary results of it for salvation to take place.

    If one believes in the preservation and perseverance of the saints, then I don't understand why someone would not believe the other four points as well as they are necessary for the doctrine of the preservation and perseverance of the saints to be true.

    [ December 25, 2002, 08:17 PM: Message edited by: Ken H ]
     
  3. mrfsw

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    I for example believe in eternal security but I do not believe in the other four points of Calvinism. If unconditional election existed the from creation Adam and Eve would not have sinned because God had asked them not to. And since God is immutable if He asked them not to he probably did not want them to sin and therefore could have foreordained or predestined them not to sin and then we would all be very happy today as sin would not have entered into the world.
     
  4. Jim1999

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    A robot does not have the capacity to worship God or anything else.....The whole purpose of man's creation was to glorify God.

    Whilst a sovereign God can with the twist of his little finger command the world to come into being and did so, he made humankind a free agent.

    If you draw a circle within a circle you have the two realms of God and humanity. The outer circle is God's sovereign realm where God assumes absolute reign. The smaller circle inside the other is man's domain, and he is relatively free to exercise his choices, which includes sin and disobedience.

    It seems to me, to claim the label of Calvinism, it is all or none. So, theoretically, none of us, as Baptists, are strictly Calvinist, but we do cling to reformed theology as expressing our basic and fundamental beliefs.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  5. kbreton

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    [​IMG]
    Please help me explain to my wonderful true Christian husband from the "Bible Missionary"(split from the Nazarene-Wesleyn Holiness) background that my faith in the Baptist doctrine is not based on the four point Calvinist doctrines...I had only one year of Bible school and don't wish to "Bible-bash" with him...I believe there is no way to become lost after what Jesus has done for me...and really he expresses this, too...but the doctrines confuse...thank you dear folk! [​IMG]
     
  6. Abiyah

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    Thank you for asking that, Ladybug (what a cute
    name!). My husband and I are in similar circum-
    stances, but he is starting to see it, too. Regard-
    less, it is hard to break old beliefs. The whole
    thing remains as clear as mud to me, too, being
    from the same background, but I pick up on a few
    things now and then!

    [ December 26, 2002, 04:56 PM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]
     
  7. KenH

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    All of this is fun to argue but it has no relevance to salvation as no one is saved by theology. We are saved by trusting in the finished work of Christ Jesus alone. Whether we arrive at the correct understanding of why we trusted when we trusted is of secondary importance.
     
  8. mrfsw

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    I have to take issue with the statement that how and why we were saved is not of importance. For if the doctrines of grace are true then why do we need to spread the gospel via soul winning and visitation. I thank God that I was led to the Lord by a man that did not believe in unconditional election and I probably would not have been saved had he. I am sure that there was someone that led you to the Lord also. So the how and why we are saved is of great importance if we are to follow Gods command to sread the gospel throughout the world to all men.
     
  9. KenH

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    The average Calvinist is just as committed to evangelism as the average non-Calvinist.
     
  10. Abiyah

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    I believe Ladybug and I are asking an honest
    question, though, and I am searching for an-
    swers. I am not interested in an argument. I
    came to Baptist Board to learn several things,
    and this is one with which I struggle.

    I know that I have asked several questions al-
    ready, and expressed concern that I do not
    understand some of the answers yet, but I am
    still trying.

    Ladybug, too, has a legitimate concern.

    Would it be possible to answer us in this thread
    witthout the sides going off in some tangent?
    I don't mind debate, but anger and the vitriolics
    teach us only that soimeone is a bit uncomfort-
    able and lacking in knowledge for their point of
    view.
     
  11. Daniel David

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    We preach the gospel to all peoples because that is God's ordained means of bringing people to faith. Calvinism does not kill evangelism, disobedience does. Calvinism kills bad evangelism.
     
  12. Caretaker

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    Remonstrates of Arminian Position:

    1.God has decreed to save through Jesus Christ those of the fallen and sinful race who through the grace of the Holy Spirit believe in him, but leaves in sin the incorrigible and unbelieving. (In other words predestination is said to be conditioned by God's foreknowledge of who would respond to the gospel)

    2.Christ died for all men (not just for the elect), but no one except the believer has remission of sin.

    3.Man can neither of himself nor of his free will do anything truly good until he is born again of God, in Christ, through the Holy Spirit. (Though accused of such, Arminius and his followers were not Pelagians.)

    4.All good deeds or movements in the regenerate must be ascribed to the grace of God but his grace is not irresistible.

    5.Those who are incorporated into Christ by a true faith have power given them through the assisting grace of the Holy Spirit to persevere in the faith. But it is possible for a believer to fall from grace.

    Five theological points were formulated to answer the Remonstrants in a document known as the Canon of Dort, which declared:

    that fallen man was totally unable to save himself (Total Depravity)

    that God's electing purpose was not conditioned by anything in man (Unconditional Election)

    that Christ's atoning death was sufficient to save all men, but efficient only for the elect (Limited Atonement)

    that the gift of faith, sovereignly given by God's Holy Spirit, cannot be resisted by the elect (Irresistible Grace)

    that those who are regenerated and justified will persevere in the faith (Perseverance of the saints)
    --------------------------------------------------

    I feel like I am in a Chinese restaurant, ordering 2 from column A and 3 from column B.
     
  13. rsr

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    If you're a Baptist, all things are possible.

    Be a 1-point Arminian. Or a 4-point Calvinist. Or a 4-point Calvinist. Or a 1-point Arminian.

    Only God knows how he chose to "save" people. Preach the Good News and let God sort it out.
     

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