1 Peter 3:21 Is Not About Water Baptism

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Hark, Oct 7, 2014.

  1. Hark

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    It is understandable that some see verse 21 as referring to water baptism as expounding off of verse 20.

    1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

    The problem is if it was really water, then how does the phrase "The like figure" applies when it is referring to water mentioned previously as symbolic?

    Peter clarified this by pointing out what kind of baptism he was talking about.

    21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

    The underlined portion of the verse testify that Peter was not talking about water baptism as it is water that is used in putting away the filth of the flesh.

    The baptism that Peter is talking about is the baptism with the Holy Ghost that Jesus gives as promised from the Father for all those that come to & believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ. So the answer of a good conscience towards God is believing in the gospel preached unto them whereby they have received the promise of the Spirit and are saved.

    John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
     
  2. Hark

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    That truth about the kind of baptism talked about in relations to salvation in 1 Peter 3:21 also applies to Mark 16:16.

    Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

    It would be erroneous to assume that the baptism in Mark 16:16 was about water baptism when the condemnation rests on those not believing at all.

    And yet by believing, they receive the baptism with the Holy Ghost as promised.

    Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
     
  3. Hark

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    Peter did not preach two different gospel; as if the means to be saved was different for the Jews thus requiring water baptism in His name as opposing the gospel preached unto the Gentiles whereas believing in Him was all that they needed to do in receiving the promise of the Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ.

    If one leans on Him to see Peter's actual message, you may see that he did preached the same gospel to the Jews as he has done to the Gentiles.

    First the gospel message to the Gentiles by Peter.

    Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

    Peter did not say anything different towards the Gentiles in how to be saved which is to believe in Him in order to receive the remission of sins.

    Note how Peter announced in verse 47 that the Gentiles had received the Holy Ghost the same way as the Jews had done and therefore he stated that no one should refuse the Gentiles water baptism in His name which is highly indicative that the Jews had received the Holy Ghost before water baptism too.

    Unto the gospel preached unto the Jews by Peter.

    Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. 37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. 40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

    To understand verse 38 in context, the Jews were pricked in their hearts for being of the mob that had crucified the Lord Jesus Christ for not believing in Him to be God. It is the reason why He was crucified, and therefore guilt came upon their hearts after seeing the truth finally, and so they had asked Peter what they were to do for not believing in Him.

    Peter said "Repent" in verse 38 which can only be applied towards repenting from not believing in Him by believing in Him. The the command for water baptism was an after effect for repenting by believing in Him, and thus understandable as to why some readers see that as connected to the remission of sins by water baptism, but that was not really Peter's message.

    Peter referred to the prophets towards the Gentiles on how to receive the remission of sins which was by believing in Him and so those same prophets of the Jewish nations are speaking that same promise to the Jews that believe in Him as they too shall receive the remission of sins.

    It is unfortunate that many readers see "Repent and be baptized" as if connecting water baptism for the remission of sins, when it was really only applicable towards the call of repentance from unbelief by believing in Him.

    Peter did not preach two different gospels. The command to be water baptized in His name has nothing to do with salvation, but was an ordinance for saved believers to follow as God permits since God is able to save anyone that calls on His name whethor there is any water around for water baptism or not.

    Peter did say to the Jews that this promise was to those afar off as well as to those near and that promise given clearly to the Gentiles is that by believing in Him is how one receives the remission of sins as prophesied by the prophets.

    So please do not confuse the ordinance of water baptism in His name as a necessity for salvation because Peter wasn't really preaching tow different gospels on how any one is to be saved.

    As 1 Peter 3:21 signified that water baptism is not what he was talking about in how any one was saved, but the answer of a good conscience by the resurrection of Jesus Christ; thus believing in Him which brings the promisefrom the Father of the baptism with the Holy Ghost by Jesus Christ is the actual baptism that saves us as Jesus has saved us by believing in Him.
     
  4. Zenas

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    Scriptural use of the word "baptism" always means the commonly understood dipping in water, unless the writer or speaker expressly states otherwise. E.g., Luke 3:16. It amazes me the linguistic gyrations people use to avoid the obvious and unambiguous, that baptism is indeed sacramental.

    You might do well to consult some other translations of 1 Peter 3:21 such as the NASB: "Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- . . . ." Corresponding to what? The ark, not the water. The ark is a type of baptism. The ark saved Noah and his family. Baptism saves us. It's very simple and easy to comprehend unless you are so conditioned that you cannot wrap your mind around the sacraments that Christ gave us.
     
  5. Hark

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    Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

    That would signify how Jesus saves us by believing in Him; not the water baptiser.

    Define sacrament;

    Name the sacraments;

    Explain what each sacrament is for.

    If the sacrament is doing something that only Jesus Himself does, then He did not give those "sacraments".

    1 Peter 3:20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the [a]water. 21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, NASB

    You still have to explain away the deferment given in verse 21 in how Peter was not talking about the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal of a good conscience towards God which is by only believing through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Water is not involved here at all.

    Jesus is our ark. Not water baptism.

    Believing in Jesus is how we receive the remissions of sins and thereby receive the promise of the Holy Spirit and are saved: not water baptism.:jesus:

    When one starts using sacraments in place of what Jesus Himself is doing, you put the spotlight on the sacraments and thus away from Jesus Christ.

    We are not disciples of the sacraments. We are to be disciples of Jesus Christ in seeking His glory; not a church hoarding the glory of sacraments.
     
  6. PreachTony

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    The ark is a type of Jesus Christ. Study the myriad similarities between the ark, the Passover lamb, and the Messiah. See how they parallel each other. Our salvation is attained through Jesus Christ and his sacrifice, not through some type of physical baptism.

    Please note the following scriptures:

    Baptism itself is a sign to the world of a change within us. It is a symbolic burial and resurrection. But the act of baptism itself (meaning the physical water baptism) contains no saving grace whatsoever. Now, if you mean the baptism with the spirit and with fire (for our God is a consuming fire), then yeah, I can see that. But water baptism? No.

    Otherwise, Paul would've written 1 Cor 1:21 as "For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by baptism to save them that believe."

    He would've written to the Philippians, telling them to "work out their own salvation through baptism."

    Conversely, our way of interpretation is simple and easily comprehended unless you are so conditioned that you cannot wrap your mind around the fact that misguided misinterpretations of scripture place more emphasis on the man-made ceremonies than on the works of God within the heart. As Paul wrote in Romans 1:21-23 - "Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
    Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
    And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
    "
     
  7. The Biblicist

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    Peter's whole point is to deny that baptism literally saves. It saves only in "figure" just like the ark being lifted by water was a figure of salvation. The figure which both (ark lifted up, and baptism) provides is "the resurrection of Jesus Christ".

    The words in parenthesis explains the water in baptism does not literally remove the filth of sin, but rather is the response to a conscience already cleansed from the filth of sin.

    In regard to the ark, it was LITERAL water that came down in great torrents upon the ark, and it was LITERAL water that lifted up the ark - all a figure of the resurrection of Christ from the grave. Likewise, it is LITERAL water used in baptism and the candidate is literally submerged and literally raised up in literal water. However, the parethetical explanation denies that LITERAL water has LITERAL saving power to remove spiritual sin.
     
  8. Hark

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    Thanks to PreachTony & Biblicist for sharing your "talents".

    It is interesting to see how the ark is applied in 1 Peter 3:20-21.

    I still see water as referring to what we would use for putting away the filth OF the flesh like when one bathes as I was seeing Peter meaning not water baptism, and thus referring to the promise of the Spirit as it is that baptism that saves us for all those that come to & believe in Jesus Christ.

    Jesus baptized us with the Holy Ghost at our salvation and therefore Jesus has saved us.:thumbs:
     
  9. Zenas

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  10. Hark

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    Nope. Former Presbyterian; I'd be attending a Baptist church but all the ones locally had gotten involved in the Promise Keepers program which was also an apostasy spreading across the denomenations in 1994. Their silence on the matter also bothered me as I had written letters to all the Baptists churches warning them of it.

    Scripture gives the credit for our sanctification to Jesus Christ.

    1 Corinthians 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

    This was achieved by the hearing of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

    2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    1 Peter 1:2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

    The only sanctification we are to maintain is abstain from fornication.

    1 Thessalonians 4: 3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: 4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;

    There are means that sanctify us; His words being one...

    John 17:17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

    Ephesians 5:25.....even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

    His blood being the other:

    Hebrews 13:12Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

    It is not done by communion, but by walking in the light as He did by His grace & by His help.

    1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    The sacraments are not listed in scripture as serving towards that end.

    Actually, citing water baptism as a visible sign of being born again goes against what Jesus is saying because that would mean people can know "WHEN" someone is born again. Let us recap on John 3:5.

    John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    Now Jesus just deferred from verse 5 in verse 6 by citing that which is born of water as the birth that does involve water is of the flesh and thus not of the birth of the Spirit. There is a difference between two births.

    7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

    Yet Jesus did emphasize the necessity of being born again of the Spirit.

    8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

    Jesus just explained that nobody can know when a person is about to be born again.

    9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

    Now Nicodemus is asking how one is born again. Jesus eventually answered.

    10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Believing in Him is HOW one is born again. May God cause the increase.

    Cutting this post short as it is getting too long.

    May continue, God be willing, in the next post.
     
  11. Hark

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    You do know that believers have been receiving the Holy Spirit without the laying on of hands? Just because it happened one incident, it does not necessarily mean it is a necessity all the time that it would be a sacrament.

    Acts 8:17 may have been about using the laying on of hands for confirmation, but only because of spiritual warfare as these people had just been delivered from unclean spirits. Simon the scorceror was among those believing in those things "about" the kingdom and the name of Jesus Christ but his heart was still not right with God. Plus, the people had been afflicted by Simon the scorceror and so any receiving of the Holy Ghost had to be done by the laying on of hands by the disciples as the people may confuse that divine reception with unclean spirits that they had been just delivered from and may become afraid and blasphemy the receiving of the Holy Ghost as being those unclean spirits.

    So in that sense, laying on of hands was a way of confirming that the reception of the Holy Ghost was not to be asscoiated with Simon the scorceror whom had been afflicting these people with unclean spirits.

    Acts 8: 7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed. 8 And there was great joy in that city. 9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one: 10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God. 11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.

    So with Simon among the interested party, God had to work differently in leading the people, including Simon, to His Son in receiving the promise of the Holy Spirit.

    No other times was the laying on of hands was reported as a means to receive the Holy Spirit and thus not a necessity for the church to practise in the church.

    There are other accounts where reception of the Holy Spirit was by believing in Jesus Christ and the instruction to the churches testify that it is by trusting Jesus that one receives the promise of the Spirit: Ephesians 1:12-15

    When communion is to be done in remembrance of Him, it cannot be more than that to call it holy. Communion means symbolism, and symbolism requires that it not be an idol in becoming the actual thing it represents.

    Jesus said John 6:54 the way He had said it because the Jews were not believing Him on how to receive the actual bread of life was by coming to & believing in Him.

    John 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. 34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. 35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

    The Jews were so stuck in their mentality of actually eating this bread that Jesus began to refer to His coming one time sacrifice on the cross, but in no wise was He talking about communion because if He was, then a believer would only eat & drink of this one time to never do so again for that would be denying His promise to never hunger nor thirst for that bread of life again.

    And so the receiving of this bread of life was by believing in Him. Jesus explained it plainly several times that it was not the actual flesh nor the actual eating part He was talking about, but by believing in Him.

    John 6:41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.....47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. 48 I am that bread of life. 49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. 52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

    It is understandable how a church and believers misunderstood Him when He is addressing their stuck mentality on actually eating this bread, but in verses 49 & 58, Jesus had twice deferred from the actual eating as their fathers did eat manna and are dead. This eating or receiving of the bread of life was by believing in Him.

    When He had explained it to the disciples plainly... He exposed how not believing in Him is how one does not receive the bread of life as He referred to His coming ascension to Heaven after His resurrection.

    John 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? 61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? 62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

    So believing in Him is how one "receives" the bread of life without eating.

    John 6:54 was never rally about communion but about how we are saved.
     
  12. Hark

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    From this link os the Catholic Catechism Online:

    http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/epub/index.cfm

    These are quotes from that link....

    If the church deems that the sacraments are necessary for salvation, then doing them to obtain grace is not grace.

    Romans 11: 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

    Actually, the whole system of sacraments was substituting grace by an errant church basing it on the hard sayings of Jesus to the "unbelieving" Jews.

    All invitations points to Jesus for life: none to the sacraments.

    John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

    When the church use scripture to point away from the Son for life, then they are not really understanding the scripture.

    James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

    Don't follow the crowd, brother. Go before that throne of grace and trust Jesus Christ as your Good Shepherd to discern & prove everything by all of the scripture in context and the truts will not go against other scripture.

    Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

    2 Timothy 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

    1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

    Ephesians 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

    1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. 25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

    2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
     
  13. The Biblicist

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    In the parenthetical explanation there is first given a negative of what baptism cannot do, but then there follows a positive. The negative is that baptism does not remove the "filth of the flesh." You think he is referring to literal filth (dirt) found on the literal physical "flesh." However, in the positive response that follows, Peter makes it clear he is referring to the "filth" that had defiled the conscious or the filth of "the flesh" or principle of sin operating through the members of our body (as Paul explains in Romans 7:15-20). The faculty of conscience is defiled by sin and it is faith in the gospel of Christ which declares the shedding of His blood (giving of his life) that actually and literally purges sin from our conscious (Heb. 9:12). Baptism is positively stated to be the "answer" or response of a "good" conscious already cleansed.

    Your problem is that you are failing to see that the positive affirmation in the parenthetical explanation demands the negative refers to a spiritual filth of the fleshly nature that defiled the conscience with guilt due to sin. Baptism is an outward public declaration of faith in the death, burial and "resurrection of Christ."

    Therefore, 1 Peter 3:21 is an explicit affirmation that water baptism is a "figure" of salvation and response of a conscience already purged from sin, but it is not a means to obtain literal cleansing of the conscience from sin or the filth of the flesh that defiles conscience by guilt.
     
    #13 The Biblicist, Oct 11, 2014
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  14. Hark

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    Since believing in Him is how one receives the remission of sins, both Jews and Gentiles alike, then water baptism can hardly serve as a symbolism for putting away the filth as inferring sin that has defiled us.

    Citing "even baptism doth also now save us" would place the deferrment on this "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh," which is pertaining more to the physical body than sin itself thus deferring from water baptism to this " but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" wherein by believing in Him, one receives the baptism with the Holy Ghost as promised.

    Having received Jesus Christ, we are hid in Him as the ark.

    Colossians 3:1If ye then be risen with Christ...3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

    I appreciate the effort on your part to clarify what you deem as a failure on my part in seeing, but we both know that the seeing is on the Lord for us to see, and so I leave that up to Him in seeing how Peter was deferring from water baptism and that it cannot serve as a symbol when it has nothing to do with the remissions of sins when the answer of a good conscience from God is, which is by believing in Him which brings the promise of the baptism with the Holy Ghost by way of Jesus Christ as scripture elsewhere testify.
     
  15. The Biblicist

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    I never said it was! I said the very opposite. I said it does not put away sin. Sin is put away by faith in Christ's redemptive work. Baptism serves only as a symbol of the gospel, as immersion in water is impossible to do without going down under the water and coming back up - hence, death is assumed prior to burial and resurrection.

    this is first qualified by "like figure" thus establishing it is understood as a figure only. The parenthetical explanation "not putting away the filth of the flesh" further qualifies the fact that baptism is only figurative in regard to salvation from sin. The phrase "but an answer of a good conscience" provides the proper purpose of the symbol of baptism - an outward figurative witness.

    That is why baptism is called a "like" figure as it corresponds to the Old Testament figure of the Ark. Note all eight were in the ark BEFORE water fell, before the ark was lifted up - demonstrating we are "in Christ" PRIOR TO baptism by faith (Eph. 1:8-10) and again that salvation by water in regard to the ark was a "like" figure to baptism in water.



    You are missing the very point Peter is making. First, he delcares it is a "FIGURE" which you deny. Second, he denies it remits sin which you agree, but is rather only the OUTWARD FIGURATIVE response of a conscience already cleansed by faith, which you deny.
     
  16. Hark

    Hark
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    Sorry for what seems to be my misrepresentation of your viewpoint, but I was disagreeing with what I believe was your assertations that Peter would even use the symbolism of water baptism as putting away the filth of the flesh which you seem to be also asserting that filth of the flesh was symbolic of sin in us.

    I would say that the like figure was referring to verse 20, and making the symbolic reference towards what actually saves us is the actual baptism as identifying it literally what that baptism was; not water as that is used for putting away the filth of the flesh, but the promise given for all believers in Jesus Christ; the baptism with the Holy Ghost.

    By faith, Noah entered the ark; and by faith we enter into Christ Jesus. Since you know how, then water baptism was not the symbolism that Peter was going for.

    Consider this: how is the answer of a good conscience by the resurrection of Jesus Christ that saves us is referring to water baptism?

    How can "not putting away the filth of the flesh" which water can do, be not seen by anyone as deferring from water baptism to the baptism that actually saves?

    1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us

    Peter is bout to address an actual baptism that saves us...but note how he is deferring from a specific kind of baptism...

    (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh,

    So what baptism would refer to putting away of the filth of the flesh? Water. So Peter is deferring from that kind of baptism, water baptism.

    Then Peter refer to the actual baptism that saves....

    but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

    Do not believers receive the promise of the Holy Spirit ( a baptism ) by believing in Jesus Christ? Is not the baptism that nows saves is the one Jesus gives us and thus how Jesus has saved us?

    I am sure there are differences of opinions in the use of symbolism in Revelations that you can give grace for; and since Peter is using symbolism here, you can give grace here as well as I hope you can see why I believe the way that I do.

    Peter is deferring from one kind of baptism towards another in testifying which baptism now saves us as it comes by the answer of a good conscience by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

    You are right to refer to Jesus as the ark BUT I believe that is the like figure Peter was talking about; the symbolism of what saves us whereas in this case; Who & how.
     
  17. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    No, that is not what I said or intended.

    "saved by water" is the corresponding words to "whereunto baptism doth also now save us." Note both are said to save. But how do both save. The former words "saved by water" and the latter words "whereunto baptism doth also now save us" are "like" each other in that both are said to save. However, their likeness is not that either LITERALLY save anyone but only save in "figure."

    They both "figure" literal salvation "by the resurrection of Jesus Christ." The "saved by water" refers to the water lifting up the ark thus providing the "figure" of the "resurrection of Jesus Christ. The baptism that now save us does so by providing the "figure" of the "resurrection of Jesus Christ. Hence, both are "like" in that both are a "figure" of the same reality that literally saves "the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

    Hence, neither save literally and that is the point of the parenthetical explanation. Neither remove the filth of the flesh = the metaphor for the defilement of sin, the fleshly nature. Both are outward FIGURATIVE responses "answer" to having already been literally cleansed from sin and thus the response of an already "good" conscience.
     
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    Peter and paul both link water baptism as being an outward symbol/sign that shows to us what God already has accomplished in the death and resurrection of jesus on our behalf...

    The ordinance itself does n ot save us, but that which it attests to has already!
     
  19. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

    This verse has nothing to do with ‘Christian water baptism’. It says exactly what it says and is : a reference to Noah in his BURIAL-TYPE of “BONE-DAY” in the “COFFIN” of pitch black, airless, breathless, lifeless DEATH-in-waiting for the LIGHT and RESURRECTION LIFE through the Saviour of the world.

     
    #19 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Oct 18, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 18, 2014
  20. Hark

    Hark
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    I know that the emphasis on understanding the verses has been taken by most as assigning the baptism that now saves us as being the like figure; assigning verse 20 as a sign or symbolism to that baptism that now saves us, but my point was, that the symbolism in referring to verse 20 ends there as Peter was explaining the actual baptism that now saves us as being the one that Jesus gives us when we were saved by believing in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

    How we see that baptism with the Holy Spirit as received at our salvation in relation to the symbolism given in verse 20 can be seen in different ways, but the baptism that actually saved us is the one Jesus gives at our salvation for believing in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
     

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