1 Thess 5:22

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by jw, Jan 27, 2006.

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  1. jw

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    KJV: Abstain from all appearance of evil.
    NASB: abstain from every form of evil.
    NIV: Avoid every kind of evil.


    Is it form, appearance, or kind - and why do you hold that position?
     
  2. Brother James

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    I'd check the text they were translated from. The NASB is from the critical text and the KJV from the TR. I try to abstain from all appearance but either statement holds true.
     
  3. jw

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    Both the TR and CT use eidous.

    BDAG has all three definitions listed, they seem to favor "kind" for this verse (sorry the Greek fonts won't copy/paste here):

    [BDAG] ei=doj
    • ei=doj, ouj, to, (Hom.+.—CRitter, Neue Unters. über Plato 1910, 228-320)

    1. the shape and structure of someth. as it appears to someone, form, outward appearance (X., Cyr. 1, 2, 1; Pla., Symp. 210b; Philostrat., Ep. 51; Gen 41:2-4; Ezk 1:26; Philo; Jos., Ant. 6, 296; TestSim 5:1; Mel., P. 47, 334 [Perler]) swmatikw/| ei;dei in bodily form Lk 3:22; cp. GEb 18, 36 (Just., D. 88, 4 evn ei;dei peristera/j and oft.). to. ei=doj tou/ prosw,pou auvtou/ the appearance of his face Lk 9:29 (ApcEsdr 4:29 p. 29, 3 Tdf.). Of God (cp. Ex 24:17; Theoph. Ant. 1, 3 [p. 62, 8]) ei=doj auvtou/ (w. fwnh,) J 5:37. Of the form of polytheists’ gods Dg 2:1. ouvk e;cein ei=doj have no comeliness 1 Cl 16:3 (Is 53:2). to. pu/r kama,raj ei=doj poih/san formed the shape of a vaulted room MPol 15:2.

    2. a variety of someth., kind (X., Pla. et al.; PTebt 58, 20f [111 BC]; PFay 34, 6; POxy 905, 6; Sir 23:16; 25:2; Philo; Jos., Ant. 10, 37 pa/n ei=doj ponhri,aj; Just., Tat., Ath. [here the ‘form’ of matter]) avpo. panto.j ei;douj ponhrou/ fr. every kind of evil 1 Th 5:22 (Unknown Sayings, p. 92 [money-changing?])

    3. the act of looking/seeing, seeing, sight (Num 12:8; Ps.-Clem., Hom. 17, 18 sto,ma kata. sto,ma, evn ei;dei kai. ouv diV o`rama,twn kai. evnupni,wn. So also the interpr. of 2 Cor 5:7 in Severian of Gabala [Pauluskomm. aus d. griech. Kirche ed. KStaab ’33, 291] and in Theodoret III 314 Noesselt) dia. pi,stewj, ouv dia. ei;douj by faith, not by sight 2 Cor 5:7 (the same contrast betw. pisteu,ein and ivdei/n [s. ei=don 1a] also J 20:29).—PBrommer, EIDOS et IDEA ’40. DELG and Frisk. B. 874. EDNT. M-M. TW.
     
  4. Brother James

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    From what I read appearance would be best but form would not be in error.
     
  5. Brother James

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    22 Abstain from every form of evil.
    NKJV
     
  6. jw

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    Why do you hold to "appearance"?
     
  7. Brother James

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    I didn't say I was infallable brother. lol.
    I just said appearance seems to be best to me, but upon further reflection I may change my mind.
     
  8. jw

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    Hehe, didn't mean it to sound like that [​IMG] Was just wondering your reasoning.

    I'm undecided myself. Started the thread hoping to get some different viewpoints and reasonings [​IMG]
     
  9. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    After seeing this debate many, many times I think there is a sense in which "form" and "appearance" are synonymous. The same word is translated "shape", "fashion", and even "sight" in the KJV.

    Probably for today every "form" of evil is a clearer choice because we tend to think of "appearance" as something that gives an impression, true of false, but it can also mean something's form or shape.

    Saying that, I think both words are valid translations.
     
  10. Brother James

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    [​IMG]
     
  11. jw

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    BDAG has definitions using "form" as in the appearance or way something looks and "form" as in "the ‘form’ of matter" or the way something actually is (or "kind").

    The KJV and NIV make definate interpretational calls (KJV saying it means the way something looks, the NIV saying it is the way something actually is), and the NASB seems to leave it open to interpretation.

    How do you know which is right here?
     
  12. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    I would have to know more about what the average reader would have thought when he read the word in 1611. The words are very similar, even in our modern English mind. It would not have taken much difference in English for the word "appearance" to have meant the way something actually is in 1611 and the way it looks in 2006.

    We still use the old meaning. For example, I might say, "I was excited at the appearance of my wife in the room." It sounds a bit archaic to our ear, but is a perfectly understandable sentence.

    Neither word is wrong, IMHO. As I mention above "form" is probably the better choice for us today however.
     
  13. Brother James

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    I'd say follow both and you can't go wrong!
     
  14. jw

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    Ah, I see. Misunderstood what you said.

    Found this by Michael Holmes, thought it was interesting.

    (NIV Application Commentary on 1 & 2 Thessalonians)
     
  15. Brother James

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    Greens literal translation fro the TR says,
    "keep back from every form of evil".
     
  16. jw

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    One more...
    Taking it to mean form/kind (or taking "appearance" to mean form as in the actual) means the old application that you hear at least twice a day from the typical fundy, "Don't do anything that even looks like it might be wrong" (i.e. don't listen to CCM, drink, play cards, "look like the world" (whatever that means), etc, etc...) is flat out wrong.
     
  17. jw

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    Err.. ok, one more, meant to put this one up last time.

     
  18. TCassidy

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    The verse means to avoid evil every time it appears, not to avoid doing that which somebody might think looks as if it might be evil.
     
  19. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    I hadn't considered this aspect as a possible interpretation:

    Thanks Doc, now the question makes more sense.

    I had only considered

    as the meaning.
     
  20. jw

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    Heh, you obviously don't live in the South ;)

    That's what I have always heard it as until just this week. Then I looked it up and found that I might not be so.

    Meaning avoid others who are performing the evil action, or fleeing from evil actions as they present themselves in our own life (or both)?
     
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