1 Timothy 3:4 Help on adjectives

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by KeithS, Aug 6, 2008.

  1. KeithS

    KeithS
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    One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (KJV)

    My question is regarding the adjectives in this statement concerning the qualifications of the bishop.

    "One that ruleth well his own house" is masculine singular
    "having his" is masculine singular
    "children" is neuter plural
    "in subjection" is feminine singular
    "with all gravity" is feminine singular

    I have always been under the impression that the adjectives should be in the same gender and number as the nouns they modify. In this verse that is not true. Is there any significance to the change in gender? Does one or both of the adjectives modify the subject (one that ruleth) as opposed to the object (children)? Does anyone know of other examples of a gender change between the adjectives and nouns they modify?

    I recently heard someone take the position that the first adjective refers to the children and the second to the parent. In other words he should rule his house well with all gravity and bring his children into subjection.

    I have searched but all the online resources I found indicate very few exceptions to the gender/number rule and this example does not fall into those exceptions.

    Thanks for your thoughts.
     
  2. superwoman8977

    superwoman8977
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    Okay as a person who doesnt do the gender thing, and well since I am a single mom with kids. This is where the bible bugs me because today in the 21st century houses are not ran by just the man as in my case they are run by the woman as well and this is where it irks me because a woman can do what a man can do. Okay hit me with the pitchforks I dont care. :tonofbricks:
     
  3. donnA

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    While it is true this is not always how modern man/woman does it, it is how ever how God has told us in scripture to do it. Modern man/woman tends not to care what God says.
     
  4. ReformedBaptist

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    Honestly brother, I don't understand the whole gender thing with the Greek language. But as for what thsi verse is teaching, concerning the character of an elder, it is a man who does rule his own house, that is his family, well. The office of an elder is not to be taken by a woman, and a woman is not to rule her household, but to submit to the authority of her husband. A godly man, and one fit to rule in the household of God, is one who rules in his own house well.
     
  5. Pastor Larry

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    Generally yes, but not always, and sometimes for no apparent rhyme or reasons.

    The only adjective there is "all" which is feminine since it modifies "dignity." The others are nouns.
     
  6. Pastor Larry

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    Perhaps it would be better to adjust our sensibilities to the Bible, rather than getting upset at the Bible.

    But let's consider several issues:
    1. The Bible teaches that women play an indispensable role in the household, but that men are the ones whom God has charged with responsibility. Single mothers do have to rule their own household however. This verse teaches no different.
    2. This passage is about qualifications for pastor, not about ruling households. It is masculine because only men are considered eligible to be pastors. It says nothing whatsoever about a woman ruling her household well.
    3. Women can't do everything men can do. And men can't do everything women can do. It is neither biblical nor is it experiential.
     
  7. ReformedBaptist

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    Pastor Larry,

    Do you mean by this that while the chapter touches on ruling households, it is given as a qualification for an elder/pastor. So the subject of the verse in its context is the qualifications for elders, one of which is that an elder/pastor must rule his own house (wife and children) well.

    RB
     
  8. Pastor Larry

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    Yes, that is correct, RB.
     
  9. superwoman8977

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    I am here to tell you a woman can do everything a man can do. I work on an army post and to see those women soldiers right up there with those guys shooting those 50 cal's. I also attended a church right off the post where a woman is the senior pastor and that church--wow is growing by leaps and bounds --- soldiers are part of that church--my position with the army was held by a man --a soldier to boot and they saw that I could do the job better and so I was offered his position. No one will ever convince me that a woman cant do what a man does because I havent found one thing yet that a man cant do that a woman can do. The only thing a man cant do is give birth and from the way things are going these days thats going to happen in the near future as well. I do not understand why people raise their daughters with limitations. I know if I have a daughter she will be raised just like me to be strong and independent and be able with Gods help to stand on her own two feet and not need a man to survive just the Lord!:smilewinkgrin:
     
  10. dan e.

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    Haven't we heard this story before?

    superwoman....you are indeed super for how you handle your family, being a single mother. I think your confusion with this entire gender thing is that you immediately become offended as if people believe in gender roles because of some sort of sexist bent, or a degrading view of women. On the contrary, most people (there are always a couple of nuts out there) believe strongly in the separate gender roles because of honest interpretation of the bible....not because they don't think you have the ability, or work ethic, to lead and care for your home. Try not to get so uppity over this. Try and probe around and seek after the reasoning for the bible being interpreted this way.....you may become a little more understanding, even if you still disagree.
     
  11. Deacon

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    It shouldn't bug you!
    There's a number of single woman households scattered throughout the Scriptures.
    In a pinch, we can all perform the responsibilities of the opposite sex but we were designed with specific roles to play.
    ...and doing dishes isn't included under the gender specifications.

    This is from a new resource of mine: The Lexham High Definition New Testament
    This is how the author breaks up the verse:

    Therefore an overseer must
    • be above reproach,
    • the husband of one wife,
    • sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
    • not a drunkard,
    • not violent but gentle,
    • not quarrelsome,
    • not a lover of money.
    • He must manage his own household well,
    • with all dignity keeping his children submissive,

    [Runge, S. (2008; 2008). The Lexham High Definition New Testament: ESV Edition.
    Logos Research Systems, Inc.]

    Your question had me running to my bookshelves for a Greek grammar.
    Eeeek, I can't find any! Plenty of Hebrew grammars but I can't find one for Greek.
    Well that will have to be fixed (any suggestions?)

    Rob
     
  12. KeithS

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    My mistake. I wish I had looked at this more closely on my PC instead of the PDA. My Greek is a bit rusty so I have been relying too heavily on the language tools on my PDA and PC instead of what I learned so long ago. Now it makes much more sense. Thanks Pastor Larry, for pointing this out.
     
  13. superwoman8977

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    I do get upset when I hear a woman cant do what a man can do. I have looked into this even more in the past few weeks and it Irks me that there are still people that are so close minded. Back in biblical times the woman wore the burka and took care of the family. I am so thankful for the woman who decided not to follow with the grain and took her own path..yay for her, whomever she was!!I have come to the realization that God was the typical man. I know if and when the time comes for me to marry again (oh and by the way y'all the day my divorce papers were final my now ex husband married his girlfriend...so the last few weeks have been weird but now I know the door is really closed on my marriage and I am free to have a new life he doesnt want me).
     
  14. KeithS

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    Something really cool thing I ran across on this verse. Most modern versions leave out either coveteous, or not given to filthy lucre. I can't remember which. The KJV and NKJV has 6 things in that verse, but really there are two sets of three. The first three are prefaced with μη which is the negative particle. The last three are normal words with the negative alpha prefix. αλλ separates the two sets.

    Paul has set up a parallelism with strongly negative attributes on one side and their positive counterpart on the other side. NOT given to wine, but moderate or temperate. NOT a brawler or striker, but "unquarrelsome". NOT given to filthy lucre or dishonest gain, but "uncoveteous" or the idea of not a hoarder of money. I found it interesting.

    And all of my grammars are packed away. I need to fix that.
     
  15. dan e.

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    uuhhh....WHAT?!

    Seriously. Take my advice. Do a little seeking with why people feel so strongly about gender roles. I think you'll find that it comes from honest interpretation (whether you agree with the interpretation, or not). It does not come from any idea that says women can't do what men can.

    You are a little too obsessed with proving yourself.
     
  16. DHK

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    There are many things that men do, that women cannot do.
    There are many things that men do that women should not do.
    The unisex and feminist movements were ungodly, and rebellious movements of our day that led to immodesty and a general pattern of rebellion.
    It also irks me that people are Biblically illiterate and so closed minded as to what the Bible teaches on these subjects.
    That is a false statement. Back it up with evidence if you can. But don't post information that is false.
    Burkas were instituted by the Muslims after 600 A.D. They are not Christian apparel, and have nothing to do with Christianity. Do you know what a burka is?
    Study 1Cor.11. Women were required to wear a head covering during the service of the church. Obviously, outside of the church service she was free from wearing a head covering. Throughout history from about forty years ago and beyond I can remember that all the women in both Catholic and Protestant churches wore head coverings (hats) to church. What has changed? Not the Bible. It is the feminist movement, an ungodly rebellious attitude toward the Bible. In eastern nations today, believers still wear the head covering in their church services. Only in our so-called western civilized nations are we not civilized enough to obey the command to wear a head covering.
    At any rate, the command only applies to a church service. The burka is a head to toe covering that is to be worn all the time. It is a Muslim dress, and never existed at the time of Christ.
    And that is what the Bible teaches isn't it? Why are you upset against what the Bible teaches? Your argument is against God, not with others.
    However, when children were free from the home there were some that went into their own business. Lydian (Acts 16), for example was a seller of purple. She was a business woman. But there is no indication that at that time she had a family to take care of with any small children.
    By "grain" and "path" do you mean she decided not to follow the Bible?

    Proverbs 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
    That is Mormonism. God was not a man. He is Spirit. He is the Almighty triune Godhead, the maker of Heaven and earth, the King of kings, the Lord of glory. Before Him there was no god formed; after Him there shall no god be formed. He alone is God, and there is none beside Him. He is Creator, sustainer of this universe. To Him every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. He was not simply the typical man!
    I realize you have gone through a lot of pain and trouble. Divorce is hard on all that are involved.
    I feel sorry for you that you are not willing to follow the Bible in all that it says. Your attitude towards the Bible and towards God in general, by what you have written in your post are very telling.
     
  17. donnA

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    1. If believing scripture is closed minded, then count me in.
    2. You mean a woman who decied not to follow the scriptures? How do you know such women are christians, or even claim to be? People who do not like scripture and intend on not following it, and think it isn't for them for whatever easons are usually not christians, and if they are they aren't living in the wil of God, they're making it up as they go.
    It all sounds like anti God radical feminism.
     
    #17 donnA, Aug 6, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 6, 2008
  18. donnA

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    :thumbs:

    -------
     
  19. dan e.

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    How on earth have you reached THAT realization?!
     
  20. Marcia

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    When I became a believer, I was a single mom. That made me the spiritual head of the household because there was no husband/father in the house (and the father was an unbeliever and had left the city).

    I suggest you look at this site:
    http://www.cbmw.org/

    It is hard being a single mother as a Christian because so much of the church addresses family as though there is a husband, so I understand how it can be. I often felt very left out of things. However, it is essential to search the Bible and abide by God's word and way of doing things. I think maybe you are defensive because you've been hurt, and I understand that very well, too. Try not to let that get in the way of seeing what God says, however.
     
    #20 Marcia, Aug 6, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 6, 2008

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