13 Things a Lost Person Cannot Do

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Monergist, Nov 2, 2002.

  1. Monergist

    Monergist
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    1,122
    Likes Received:
    0
    From the article at http://users.aol.com/libcfl/13.htm
     
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    And yet ALL agree that the John 12:32 DRAWING power of God - solves ALL of the above.

    So the discussion needs to get past step one and on to step two.

    Bob
     
  3. npetreley

    npetreley
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    7,359
    Likes Received:
    0
    Excellent post, TimothyW.
     
  4. KenH

    KenH
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    32,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    Then, Bob, you saying that God fails to save a lot of those whom He intends to save.

    My God never fails.

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite :cool:
     
  5. ForumChaplain

    ForumChaplain
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    Then, Bob, you saying that God fails to save a lot of those whom He intends to save.

    My God never fails.

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite :cool:
    </font>[/QUOTE]Kenneth:
    All I do is chase you from one thread to another correcting your mistakes.

    God never fails, you know that, His purpose is to save believers, and he saves every one that believes in him. Even you admit that. Yet the falsity that you attempt to perpetrate with this truth is that God has to force himself upon them. Not so Kenneth.

    What time is super served??? Southern cooking, Uummm, uummmn, good...

    [ November 02, 2002, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]
     
  6. Rev. G

    Rev. G
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2002
    Messages:
    1,635
    Likes Received:
    0
    Quite right. BUT, let me ask you... What is the Greek word used in John 12? What is the Greek used in John 6 when it speaks of God's "drawing"? Perhaps that will help to clear some of this up for us.
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    The "difference" is not in the "total depravity" of man - "Man's innability without God", NOR is the "difference" that the John 12:32 DRAWING of God is accepted to be "sufficient" to "enable" where there was only "innability" before.

    Rather the "Difference" is that Arminians claim that John 12:32 says "God draws ALL MANKIND unto himself" and the Calvinist claims it merely says "God draws ALL TYPES OF MANKIND but not ALL mankind".

    So that when it turns out that God is not the Calvinist God drawing merely "TYPES" - the Calvinist response is sometimes

    Which is the best argument - and the worst argument left to Calvinism. Its premise is that IF God loves them and IF God enables them to choose then they MUST choose God or God has FAILED to be Calvinist - has FAILED as God.

    That SAME argument may be applied to the case of Lucifer and Adam to show its utter collapse - as we all know. BOTH of those examples demonstrate the FAMILY of God - "sons of God" as Angels and Adam the "son of God" Luke 3:38 - LOVED by God, ENABLED by God to "Choose" yet failing to CHOOSE God.

    Charging the failure of the creature upon the creator - is the only argument left to Calvinism when it is shown that the "difference" is not in the starting point of man "total depravity" but the "difference" is in the starting point of GOD "So loving the WORLD, not willing for ANY to Perish, drawing ALL mankind unto Him".

    I salute Ken for being bold enough to point that out.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Many thanks to Timothy for pointing out that Calvinists "SHOULD not be using the Arminian forms of evangelism listed above - yet as has been pointed out on this board by BOTH Calvinist and Arminian contributors -- they DO".

    IN christ,

    Bob
     
  9. KenH

    KenH
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    32,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    What? Because Arminians preach about the cross of Jesus and the command of God to repent and believe, Calvinists can't do so without using "Arminian" methods? The difference between Calvinists and Anti-Calvinists is not in the imperatives of Scripture but in the indicative of Scriptures.

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite :cool:
     
  10. KenH

    KenH
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    32,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    Bob,

    We are not told of any intention on God's part to save Satan. We know the intention on God's part to save His elect.

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite :cool:
     
  11. Rev. G

    Rev. G
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2002
    Messages:
    1,635
    Likes Received:
    0
    Can we go back a bit? What is the Greek word / root for "draw" in John?

    Rev. G
     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    God gave Lucifer life and brought him into being as one of those in Job 1 - "the sons of God".

    God chose to give Adam BOTH spiritual and physical life and brought him into family relatinship as Luke says "the son of God".

    But the one that God loved - and gave "CHOICE" to and "intended for LIFE" - chose death. -

    Adams death was such that he needed a savior - he needed the new birth. The wages of sin was 'death" for Adam - not 'eternal life'. He needed Christ after choosing rebellion.

    Did God "fail to give eternal spiritual life" to one that He intended to give eternal life to?

    Is their failure to be charged against God?

    Can we really define "choice" as "a failure on God's part"?

    And yet - that is the Calvinist argument sometimes.

    But this discussion is now centered on the "real difference" between the two models - not the supposed difference of "depravity" the starting condition of fallen man without God.

    IN Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. npetreley

    npetreley
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    7,359
    Likes Received:
    0
    It's the same word used in John 6:44 (No man comes to me unless the Father draw him and I will raise him up at the last day)

    New Testament Greek for ' draw '

    1670 helkuo {hel-koo'-o} or helko {hel'-ko}
    probably akin to 138; TDNT - 2:503,227; v
    AV - draw 8; 8
    1) to draw, drag off
    2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel
    (strong's number 1670)
     
  14. Rev. G

    Rev. G
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2002
    Messages:
    1,635
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks, friend. Notice the word "drag" in your definition. It is found elsewhere in Scripture in the Book of Acts, when Paul and his traveling companion were "dragged" by the crowds. It is also found in James, ch. 2, "Do not the rich oppress you and DRAG you into the courts?" This doesn't seem like the rich were "wooing" them, or that Paul was "wooed" by the crowd. Hmmmmmmm.

    Rev. G
     
  15. npetreley

    npetreley
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    7,359
    Likes Received:
    0
    It's that special "romantic" sense of "woo", as in a cartoon caveman who clubs his woman over the head, grabs her by the hair and "woos" her away. ;)
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    To lead - to draw?? Hmm so the translators DID know what they were doing?

    How surprising!

    And how about "I stand at the door and knock if anyone hears my voice and OPEN the door I will COME IN"..??

    Sounds like an "invitation" for the "ENABLED" one on the INSIDE to -- Open the door to the one on the OUTSIDE.

    It is so obviously laid out in scripture after scripture - you would think it was written by an Arminian.

    In Christ,

    Bob

    [ November 02, 2002, 10:35 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]
     
  17. Rev. G

    Rev. G
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2002
    Messages:
    1,635
    Likes Received:
    0
    Bob,

    Do we have to get into that whole discussion again about Rev. 3:20? It is written in the context of the Church at Laodicea. Remember?

    Rev. G
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Those in Laodicea THINK they are saved - think they are covered by the robe of Christ - but instead are "poor, miserable, blind and naked" and Christ is on the "OUTSIDE" knocking and waiting to "COME IN".

    Nowhere in all of scripture is the "Poor miserable blind and naked' condition described as "the New Birth".

    IT is most definitely IN the context of Laodicea that the point is being made.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    6,179
    Likes Received:
    226
    I believe that follows after Ephesians 2:1... A dead man will never hear the knock... Must be born again... regenerated first!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  20. Rev. G

    Rev. G
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2002
    Messages:
    1,635
    Likes Received:
    0
    BTW, Bob, you never dealt with the "drag" issue.
     

Share This Page

Loading...