16 th. amendment ratified

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by ray Marshall, Oct 25, 2008.

  1. ray Marshall

    ray Marshall
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    Would someone be so kind and help us all find out if the sixteenth amendment (Income Tax Law) was ever approved by congress.











    Mistype corrected
     
    #1 ray Marshall, Oct 25, 2008
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  2. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    The 16th Amendment gave Congress the power to levy an income tax.

    It was approved by Congress and handed over to the States in 1909.

    42 of the 48 states ratified it, far more than the required 3/4
     
    #2 NaasPreacher (C4K), Oct 25, 2008
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  3. ray Marshall

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    Was it ratified? I have studied this subject for years and if it was ratified, it was maybe voted upon by a handful of congressmen as the congressmen were ready to take their Christmas break. I believe it was 1913 or 1914, during Woodroe Wilson's watch. It may have been a slick deal by a handful of congressmen that did the dirty work.
     
  4. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    I assume that since you studied it the question about the 14th amendment was a typo in the title and the OP?

    It was the 16th amendment, not the 14th, that made income tax legal. The whole debate was that the copy sent to the states had the exact same wording, but different punctuation so it was not legal. Congress ratified it in 1909 and the enough states ratified it my 1913 or 1914 (sorry not sure of the date, guess I could google it :) )

    Tax cheats try to use this fallacious reason to cheat Caesar out of what God told us to render Caesar.
     
  5. LeBuick

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  6. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    THIS link - a purported copy of the LA Times of the next day tells the whole story.

    In July 1909 the Senate gave unanimous consent and the next day the House approved it 317-14.

    I have not given the years of study to this amendment that ray has, but I knew the basics from polysci courses at college far too many years ago :).

    Perhaps ray might enlighten us with some of the results of his more extensive study.
     
    #6 NaasPreacher (C4K), Oct 25, 2008
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  7. ray Marshall

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    I will search the information,which I have currently with me and send what I have researched. I had my congressman send me some material about 15 yrs ago, but he didn't furnish me with theSenate and House vote on the passage that I ask for. I will contact his office again and ask him for the vote from each house. I see that someone sent me something and I am going to check it out.

    One question I have though. If you sign your tax return, are you giving up your fifth amendment rights?"
     
  8. ray Marshall

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    Yes, I did call it the wrong amendment, I just pulled it out of the top of my head by mistake. Sorry!
     
  9. KenH

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    The House approved the 16th amendment by vote of 318-14. The House approved the 16th amendment by a vote of 77-0.

    - ww.salestax.org/library/skousen_16history.html
     
  10. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    You are not in court, giving evidence against yourself when you file a tax return. And if you want to take that approach, amendments do just that, they amend the Constitution. If by some stretch of the imagination this fifth amendment argument was the case, it was overridden by the sixteenth amendment.

    As I mentioned, I have not studied this in the detail you have, but I was a Bircher at one time and looked at both sides of this issue then.

    I would appreciate seeing some of your research on the topic evidencing that the 16th amendment is not law of the land.
     
  11. blackbird

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    I tell ya---------all this talk on the 14th & 16th amendments-------and nobody even thinkin' about pleadin' the 5th one

    Makes me feel the importance of stockin' up on Muskett powder and shot!!! Then come and we'll talk ratifyin'------
     
  12. EdSutton

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    I believe you meant to say that the Senate approval was 77-0, here. Incidentally, I am not sure exactly how many states there were at that time this Amendment was proposed (either 45 or 46), but it would still appear that several Senators and Representatives were not around to cast any vote at the time, just from the numbers, as there were about 390 Representatives in the House at that time, I believe.

    Even though the numbers would appear to well exceed any potential 3/5, 2/3, 3/4. or 4/5 majority, that may have been actually needed for this proposed Amendment to proceed to the several states for ratification, this still means that at least 13 Senators and 50+ Representatives, did not actually participate in the vote on the proposed Amendment, FTR.

    (Maybe, even then, several Senators were already busy campaigning to get the nomination to be elected as the next President.) ;)

    Ed
     
    #12 EdSutton, Oct 26, 2008
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  13. ray Marshall

    ray Marshall
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    Those who won't to search information on the 16th. amendment chech out
    APFN.com I downloaded "The bankruptcy of the United States sometime last year. It is dynamite!!1 You will find a lot of things to read. As I said in my string topic about the 16th amentment (not 14) concerning Income tax. This one book is absolutely one of a kind, although I have ordered books about the Income tax lawsyears ago.

    a quote from the part 26 stream:
    "It was passed hastly in effort to break for christmas on December 23, 1913, while the majority of opposing Congressmen were on Christmas vacation. Then when elected, the bankers(international Bankers)financed Woodrow Wilson, he immediately signed the Federal Reserve Act."
    I have read several times that the states needed to pass the bill,signe it but several of the states signed it illigally and the states that did it legal according to the state laws was not enough to make it legal.

    President Licoln and John Kennedy were both assinated for changing the law for the Government to print their own money
    . Actually I have some $5.00 dollar bills that was printer by the bank of the United States(backed by Silver) which was accordingly done legally by our President John Kennedy, and for that reason, he was assinated.

    Lots more to come,later:
    Appalachian-american
     
  14. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    Flat out not true. The 16th Amendment was passed by both houses in July 1909. 77-0 in the Senate and 317 (or 318) to 14 in the House

    How did the 'sign it illegally' exactly?

    I think you may be confusing passage of the 16th Amendment and the Federal Reserve Act, which was passed by Congress in Dec 1913.
     
    #14 NaasPreacher (C4K), Oct 26, 2008
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  15. Zenas

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    People are prosecuted for tax fraud and/or jeopardy assessed for underreporting all the time. Some of these are very wealthy people with unlimited legal resources. If there were a loophole in the validity of the 16th Amendment, it would have been uncovered years ago by these people's lawyers. Frankly, those who suggest some form of invalidity of the internal revenue laws are either ignorant and seriously misled or they are genuine sociopaths.

    As for the question about waiving your 5th Amendment rights when you sign your tax return, there is some merit to this position. If you sign a false tax return, you have made a statement that something is true that is not. This is tax fraud and you can't later object to this false return being used against you during the prosecution of your case. In fact, this is how most white collar crimes are prosecuted. It's like the former dean of the College of Education at the University of Louisville being indicted for tax evasion. Actually he stole a number of federal grants and spent the money on himself. He was not indicted for embezzlement or defalcation; he was indicted for not reporting the stolen money on his income tax return. All income, even stolen money, is subject to the tax.

    The irony is that if you list an item as "stolen money" on your income tax return and pay the taxes on it, that admission can't be used against you in a prosecution for theft of the money. The policy behind this is to encourage people to report all their income--even their ill gotten gain.
     
    #15 Zenas, Oct 26, 2008
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  16. ray Marshall

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    I will address this issue maybe tomorrow. I don't know if it has legal merit to sign your return and above it, write,"Without pregidest" or all rights reserved" I need to study what states signed it illegal. I have some information I skipped over until I can quote it exactly as written.
     
  17. ray Marshall

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    PROOF THAT STATES DID NOT RATIFY THE 16TH AMENDMENT.
    In 1909, Congress passed the proposed Amendment. It was sent to the states for ratification by the states legistlatures There were 48 states. Three-forths or 36 of them were required to give their approval in order for itto be ratified.
    Knox declared the 16th amendment of Feburary 25, 1913, just afew days before leaving office. He counted 38 states as having approved it.
    Kentucky: The kentucky legislature rejected the amendment 33-9, but Knox counted it as having passed 22-9
    Oklahoma voted for the amendment but changed the wording to meanthe opposite of the proposed amendment-although a memo from chief Legal counsel Ruben Clark warned the states were not allowed to change the proposed amendment.
    Tennessee-Tennessee voilated its own state constitution when they failed to delay the amendment vote until a new state legislature was elected
    THESE STATES CONSTITUTIONAL VIOLATIONS MAKE THEIR APPROVAL OF THE AMENDMENTS NULL AND VOID.
    Texas and Louisiana violated provisions in their states constitutions prohibiting the legisilatures from empowering the Federal Government with any additional taxing authority. Now the number is down to 33.
    Twelve other states violated provisions in their states Constitutions, bringing the number down to 21, being 15 less than was needed.
     
  18. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    Do you have any proof for these thoughts?
     
  19. 4His_glory

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    Last time I checked "render unto Caesar" and "be subject for the Lord´s sake to every human institution whether it be to the emperor as supreme or to the governors..." are both still in the Bible.

    So then it really does not matter whether the 16th amendment was ratified properly or not because it does exist and is the law of the land, therefore as Christians especially we have an obligation to submit like it or not. Pay your taxes. Not doing so is a bad testimony of the grace of God.
     
  20. ray Marshall

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    Probably,the IRS will drum up some reasons why you are to pay up what they say you owe. I have some arguement about that however my informatiom says that to file a 1040 and another form is actually hidden ferom the individual. Heres something I found to chew over.
    Subject: It is now illigal to pay Federal Income Taxes...Reading the Patriot Act reveals a stunning Catch-22, It's a crime under the Patroic Act to give funds to any organization which is, or has been given money to a known Terrerist, or terrorist supporting group, even if you don't know you did it. Well the Taliban is listed as a terrorist Supporting group now by our Government or the U.S. Government has given them millions of dollars, thus making the Feds one of those criminal organizations supporting terrorist., which means, if you pay your taxes, you're a criminal.
    Oops, burarang! Render unto Ceasar, what is Ceasars.

    Citizens cannot "Voluntarily" file a federal income tax return without surrendering their 5th amendment right not to bear witness against themselves. You can be criminally prosecuted for your "Voluntary" return.
    Filing a federal income tax return is in fact, voluntary, because ,there is no statute or regulation that requires the vast majority of U.S. citizens to file and pay income taxes, nor to have taxes withheld from the money you earn.
    I have read, but don't knew if it is actually true that some company's will not withhold taxes if you make your request know. I know employees that are here for a five year visa, do not have taxes taken from their earnings. I do know this is true because I have been shown their check-stub back in the 90's where I was employed.
     

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