2 Cor. 11:4

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Gina B, Jul 16, 2006.

  1. Gina B

    Gina B
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    [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]
    I'd like to hear from the "experts".

    What is meant by another Jesus?
    What is meant by another spirit?
    What is meant by another gospel?

    My belief, as of today but it could change, is that....

    Another Jesus: Another person who saves. Not that they take the literal Jesus Christ who walked on earth and lie about him or try to change the truth, but that they say there is a different savior.

    Another spirit: Another way of gaining what the Holy Spirit gives us...peace, joy, etc.. In other words a set of laws, or a perscribed set of actions, or even another said "annointing" from someone other than God.

    Another gospel: not the bible, or the part which is added or taken away from the bible.






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  2. J. Jump

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    Gina that's a great question, and more often than not I suspect you will receive the answer that Paul was talking about false doctrines concerning eternal salvation.

    However, the context of II Corinthians in not eternal salvation, because this group of folks has long since been saved.

    He was talking about the gospel that is available to spiritually alive individuals. And that gospel or good news is that Christ was raised again and is coming back one day to set up His kingdom and that we can if we accept can rule and reign with Him in the future.

    However in order to do that we must maintain our belief that Christ is King and will set up His kingdom and we must continue in obedience and faithfulness.

    In verse three Paul tells us about Satan deceiving Eve, which had to do with her disqualifying herself from her original commission by God which was to have dominion over the earth along with her husband.

    And likewise we can be deceived into thinking that it is not possible, or we can be deceived into thinking that all will rule and reign regardless of whether or not one remains in the faith, faithful and/or obedient.

    Paul was afraid that these believers were going to be led astray by some false teacher or disqualify themselves from receiving their inheritance.

    Hope that helps.
     
  3. canadyjd

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    Paul meant a:

    False Jesus
    False Spirit
    False Gospel

    Paul is saying this to shame them, not to commend them.
    peace to you:praise:
     
  4. Marcia

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    I agree with canadyjd.

    "Another Jesus" can be changing something about the true, historical Jesus so that he is not the Jesus of the Bible. I tend to use the phrase "not the Jesus of the Bible" rather than "another Jesus" when talking to unbelievers.

    New Agers will usually acknowledge the historical Jesus (that he actually lived and even said the things in the Gospels) but they change his nature so that he's an advanced spiritual teacher who realized Christ consciousness or God consciousness. They also re-interpret his words, take them out of context, spiritualize them, see esoteric meanings in them, etc. This is another Jesus.

    Matthew Fox, an Episcopal priest, theologian, and writer, says that Jesus and the Christ are different (this is also common in the New Age). He says that Jesus became the Christ and others have been Christs. And we can be Christs. This is another Jesus.

    Oneness followers believe Jesus and God the Father are the same Person. They believe there is no distinction betwee Jesus and God the Father. This is another Jesus.

    "Another Jesus" is not the Jesus of the Bible.
    "Another God" is not the God of the Bible.
    "Another Spirit" is not the HS of the Bible.
     
  5. blackbird

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    A study of the Hebrew Tabernacle furnature will reveal to the expositors of the subject that the furnature contained were deemed "one of a kind"---unique---no other exactly like it----

    For instance---take the Lampstand---it was to be beaten/hammered from pure gold and not "poured into a mold"(like Aaron did that calf)

    The Lampstand became "one of a kind" no other lamstand like it---if someone came to Moses and said

    "Moses! We have a lampstand just like yours!"

    Moses could say----"Just like it, huh??? Hold your lampstand next to this genuine, unique, one of a kind" one that I have--which is the original and one and only!"

    "Ummmm! Buddy---your lampstand is "off" just a wee tad---yours is a reject!! Away with you!!"

    Hold your Jesus next to the Jesus of the Bible---and if your's does not line up in every detail to the one of a kind, unique, genuine---its an anti-christ!!!
     
  6. mcdirector

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    That's the crux isn't it.

    Hold anyone named/called Jesus up to the Jesus of the Bible for comparison. There may be similarities, but if the line up isn't 100%, then it is false. This to me is the same as Muslims worshipping Allah. Allah is God, but not God as defined in His holy word. Allah is God distorted. All of this would be easier if cults didn't use Jesus' name, but called him something else.
     
  7. donnA

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    To me another Jesus is whenever the biblical description of Jesus is changed. Like mormons don't beleive He is God in the flesh, thats another Jesus.
    A works based gospel, with no grace, is another gospel.(or what the mormons teach, also another gospel).
    Anytime we change what the bible says about Jesus/God, the gospel, it is another, not the same one.

     
  8. Dr. Bob

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    God knew the charismatics would be coming in the last days and warned about "another (diferent, not the same) Jesus, Spirit, message".

    The implication of the KJV is that they had better put up with it. But it is really saying that they are commended for handling the situation so well (not much else of commendation in either Corinthian letter). They are handling it "beautifully" and enduring this rank heresy "easily".
     
  9. Gina B

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    I never thought it meant to put up with them, neither by the verse itself or its surrounding context, but now that you say that Dr. Bob, I understand how some people could see it that way!

    JJump, thanks for your answer. I tend to agree with it, excepting the part about disqualifying themselves from receiving their inheritance. I don't understand what you meant by that part. Will you explain?

    Blackbird, what is a Jesus? How do you hold a Jesus up to Jesus? Seriously...what are you defining as Jesus? Christ is Christ. Do you mean what you think of as a savior, or do you mean that if Joe thinks Jesus the son of Mary had blond hair and Jeff thinks Jesus the son of Mary had brown hair, they're different Jesus son of Mary's?

    MC, where do you draw the conclusion that another Jesus doesn't mean another means of salvation, but that it means a distortion of the Jesus of the Bible?

    Donna, what do you define as gospel in the first place? Do you mean a gross misinterpretation of a part or whole of the bible, or simply a false presentation of the message of salvation? Asking because some people call the whole bible the gospel, some people call the salvation message part of scripture the gospel.
     
  10. J. Jump

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    I would be more than happy to explain.

    When we are saved by grace through faith apart from our works, then we are put in a position to be adopted as sons at a future date. Along with the adoption as sons there is an inheritance. It's also described as a hope.

    Our inheritance or hope is that we can one day rule and reign with Christ in His coming kingdom. However, this is not a guarantee. That's why it is called a hope. Our inheritance can be forfeited just as Esau and Reuben forfeited their inheritance in the OT.

    If you would be interested in studying the matter out further I would be more than happy to PM you with some great resource material.
     
  11. Marcia

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    I know you asked blackbird this question and he can speak for himself, but I wanted to answer it too as I think I know what he was saying.

    You hold the Jesus of group X or person X up to the Jesus of the Bible. If that Jesus does not line up in the attributes, teachings, and statements of and about the biblical Jesus, then there is something wrong. It has nothing to do with the color of hair.

    We are talking about the nature of Jesus --
    his divinity/deity, his humanity, his birth from a virgin, his sinless nature, his being the 2nd person of the Trinity, his finished work on the cross, his bodily resurrection

    and his teachings.

    It is amazing how many groups deny one of these attributes or change them, or change or deny or misinterpret his teachings.
     
  12. donnA

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    Gina, I mean the method of salvation and who Jesus is in that salvation are changed, even just a little from what scripture says.


    When anyone changes their description of who and what Jesus is, it is no longer the biblical Jesus they are talking about. And I can not see how anyone could not understand that.
     
  13. DHK

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    2 Corinthians 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
    1. It does not say that they did "bear" or tolerate "another" Jesus or gospel. It says that they could have, but they didn't. They were commended for not doing so.

    2. To the Galatians, Paul wrote:
    Galatians 1:6-8 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
    7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
    8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
    --There is another gospel; there is another Christ.
    --It is a perverted gospel, and thus a perverted Christ.
    --Those that preach such are accursed.

    3. There were false teachers in both churches: Galatia and in Corinth.
    Paul is writing dogmatically because of the false teachers. These false teachers were leading people astray inasmuch as some denied the resurrection of Christ. Read the 15th Chapter of 1Corinthians. Those that denied the Resurrection of Christ were worshipping a different Jesus, not the Christ of the gospel that Paul preached. The resurrection is essential to the gospel.

    2 Corinthians 11:8 I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service.
    --A few verses down in verse 8, Paul says that he never accepted any money from the Corinthian Church, as he did from other churches. The reason? So that the false teachers would not be able to accuse him of anything (like being a money-grabber). They wanted that position!

    2 Corinthians 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
    --Now he points the finger at them plainly. They are false apostles, deceitful workers. They have a false gospel, and a false Christ. He is thankful (verse 4) that they could have tolerated their message, a false message, but they didn't. They stuck with the truth. Only the true gospel of Christ can save. These false teachers were ministers of Satan.

    2 Corinthians 11:14-15 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
    15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
    --There is another gospel; there is another Christ. Be aware of Him. Stay away from him and his message. It leads to hell.
    DHK
     
  14. Gina B

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    I'd definitely like some resources on this, so please feel free to pm me with them.

    I'd like to discuss this in more detail on the board, but I'm busy for a few days, maybe the rest of the month and cannot dedicate the time. So in a few weeks I'll probably bump this up and we can go from there.
     
  15. Faith alone

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    Gina,

    Well, regarding "another Jesus" there was a problem even in the 1st century of "docetism." John wrote his 1st letter it is believed IOT fight it. A man named Cerenthus was espousing it.

    As the story goes, once when John was in a bathhouse in Ephesus he was told that Cerenthus had just entered the public bathhouse - which were common Ephesus. He immediately got up and supposedly ran naked down the street proclaiming that he would not remain in the same building as that heretic. :D That may well just be an urban legend, but that John was strongly opposed to Cerenthus is not. At least that's what some 2nd century writings say. Polycarp said that John said something like, "Let us flee lest the building fall, since Cerenthus, the foe of the truth, is within it!"

    Basically Cerenthus taught that Jesus was a very good man - but just a man. However, when Jesus was baptized by John the Baptizer, and the Holy Spirit descended on Him while the Father spoke, Cerenthus taught that at that moment he was indwelt by the Son and became the Christ (the Messiah). This was why He was not able to perform miracles earlier. From this point on it was taught that Jesus the Christ lived sinlessly and was God. However, at His crucifixion, when he gave up the spirit, Christ left Jesus (I know, sounds really weird. Cerenthus may have taught that the Spirit left Jesus just before the crucifixion) and so Christ never really was resurrected - but only in a spiritual sense.

    This was obvious heresy. It was a form of gnosticism. Basically it taught -> "flesh, bad; spirit, good." So none of us really sins since we have this new nature. It resulted in believers saying that they could do whatever they wanted, since the flesh is not of God. It doesn't really matter, he taught. You can live like the devil since it can't affect our inner being.

    So you can see why John wrote many of the things he did in this letter, including saying in chapter 2:22, 23 that anyone who denies the Son also denies the Father, and that this is the spirit of the antichrist.

    Remember that John started out this letter (1st John) in a similar manner to his gospel with "That which was from the/a beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have beheld and handled with our hands, concerning the Word of Life..."

    So then, just why did John express it like this? It only makes sense IMO in view of the Cerenthus heresy which was going around at the time. Those words are a clear reference to Jesus in the flesh - they saw and touched Him. And John's use of "beginning" here negates Cerenthus' claims that the man Jesus had a beginning and that he was not always the Son of God.

    Anyway, my guess would be that Paul was dealing with those who taught not a completely different person - Jesus - but some things about Jesus that were just plain not true.


    Now regarding the different gospel, in Galatians 1 Paul says that there is only one gospel, and that if anyone proclaims a different gospel than that which he had brought them - even an angel from heaven - they were to reject it.

    In 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Paul gives the basic gospel: that Jesus died for our sins, that He was crucified and was buried (genuine death) and physically raised from the dead and then ascended into heaven.

    The gospel is simply the good news that we gain eternal life through faith in Jesus Christ - trusting in His death in our place. Any gospel that asks us to trust in something else is not the gospel. Later in Galatians chapter 3 Paul addressed some of the ways that the people he was writing to were trying to change the gospel...

    Galatians 3:1-7 You foolish Galatians! Who has hypnotized you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was vividly portrayed as crucified? I only want to learn this from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now going to be made complete by the flesh? Did you suffer so much for nothing--if in fact it was for nothing? So then, does God supply you with the Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law or by hearing with faith?
    Just as Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness, so understand that those who have faith are Abraham's sons.


    See the contrats Paul makes between becoming a child of God through hearing with faith vs. the works of the Law? He gives Abraham as an example of someone who was declared to be righteous by God based on his faith alone.

    So a different gospel would be one which placed an emphasis on works instead of faith.

    Also, the Greek is interesting here in these 3 things...

    another Jesus - ἄλλον (ALLON - from ALLOS)
    another Spirit - ἕτερον (hETERON - from hETEROS)
    another gospel - ἕτερον (hETERON - from hETEROS)

    Now ALLOS means "another of the same kind," while hETEROS means "another of a different kind." IOW, Paul was referring to another Jesus of the same kind, and a different Spirit and a different gospel.

    It could have been translated as...

    For if a person comes and preaches another Jesus, whom we did not preach, or you receive a different spirit, which you had not received, or a different gospel, which you had not accepted, you put up with it splendidly!

    I noticed that the HCSB did just that. Good job, guys. Now earlier I suggested that this Jesus which Cerenthus preached
    was not a completely different person (Jesus) but some things about the Jesus they taught were just plain not true. He taught the same Jesus - but in a manner that was false.

    FA
     
    #15 Faith alone, Jul 22, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 22, 2006
  16. Askjo

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    Another Jesus = a cult.
    Another spirit = a cult.
    Another gospel = a cult.
     
  17. Faith alone

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    Again, it should be...

    another Jesus, a different Spirit, and a different gospel.

    Also, the Greek is interesting here in these 3 phrases...

    another Jesus - ἄλλον (ALLON - from ALLOS)
    another Spirit - ἕτερον (hETERON - from hETEROS)
    another gospel - ἕτερον (hETERON - from hETEROS)

    Now ALLOS means "another of the same kind," while hETEROS means "another of a different kind." IOW, Paul was referring to another Jesus of the same kind, and a different Spirit and a different gospel.

    It could have been translated as...

    For if a person comes and preaches another Jesus, whom we did not preach, or you receive a different spirit, which you had not received, or a different gospel, which you had not accepted, you put up with it splendidly! (HCSB)

    FA
     

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