2 Peter 3:9 and Ezekiel 33:11

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by agedman, May 28, 2013.

  1. agedman

    agedman
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    4,254
    Likes Received:
    185
    On another thread, these two verses were posted in support of a universal non-cal position.

    Because the application by the poster was incorrect and the reply post seems buried in the thread, I decided to move the Scriptures to this part of the board for the forum folks to consider.



    First 2 Peter 3:9

    "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."


    Peter is NOT writing to heathens - but to the brethren. He is writing not to the unsaved, but the saved. He is also NOT discussing salvation but the return of Christ.

    Therefore the verse in question MUST be read in THAT context to derive the correct interpretation.

    Peter is not stating that all will be saved.

    Peter is not stating that even some will be saved.

    Peter is in fact holding to the same thinking the Lord Jesus Christ expressed when He stated, "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out."

    Peter is reminding the believers that when the last person that the Father has given to the Son to save is saved, He will return.

    Any other rendering of the verse will ultimately lead to universalism.



    Second Ezekiel

    "Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord Jehovah, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"


    This is not a verse about salvation, but of God urging HIS people to quit sinning. Think of Paul encouraging the people to degraded the Lord's table and were now "asleep."

    Ezekiel is quoting God.

    God is making a statement about Himself - He does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked.
    God is stating what does please Him - the His children stop sinning.


    The point being made is that BOTH verses are written to folks God has called His own. Because of the context, neither verse is rightly used to defend a non-cal position.

    As always, I ask the good scholarship of the BB folks to consider if the Word is correctly posted by this agedman. Thank you.
     
  2. DrJamesAch

    DrJamesAch
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2012
    Messages:
    1,427
    Likes Received:
    0
    First of all, the explanation that you responded to was not Universalism. Universalism is the heresy that everyone will be saved, no matter what. That God will eventually bring everyone to an understanding of Jesus Christ someday.

    Secondly, most Universalists do not believe in a literal hell. How could they since they believe everyone will be saved.

    The rest isn't worth responding to since you not only erroneously labeled it Universalism, but none of your arguments corresponded to anything I said about those 2 verses.
     
  3. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks for the "schooling" on the meaning of Universalism. There are a few such universalists on this board.
     
  4. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,515
    Likes Received:
    49
    2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some regard slowness, but is being patient toward you, because he does not wish for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. (NET)

    1) Yes, this is addressed to believers.

    2) The promise in view is the return of Christ.

    3) God is being patient toward believers, allowing us time to carry out the ministry of Christ as ambassadors of Christ.

    4) God does not wish for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.

    The issue is whether God's wish is to compel via Irresistible Grace, or persuade by beseeching people to be reconciled to God. Non-Calvinists see this verse as plainly teaching that God would provide the propitiation or means of salvation to all men, thus all could be washed by His blood, if God credits their faith in Christ as righteousness.

    What Calvinism does is assume God's plan is compulsion and thus see the need to make all men read all elect men. But if God's purpose and plan is to provide the call through the gospel, and then choose those whose faith He credits as righteousness, then 2 Peter 3:9 can be accepted as written.
     
  5. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,403
    Likes Received:
    328
    When you are wrong,you are usually very wrong. Here you are very right.
     
  6. agedman

    agedman
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    4,254
    Likes Received:
    185


    No, Van, the issue (that which you wrote and I placed in bold) is NOT the issue of that passage.

    The passage IS teaching the believers that God will come when the last person that is to be saved is saved. The promise of God is not slack or slow in coming, but is certain, just as in the Days of Noah.

    Noah as an example:

    For the people did not listen to Noah. He had preached the message of impending judgement for so long, the ears of the people become tired of hearing and they scorned the message.

    Yet, Noah was not alone on the ark. Rather, until the last of the family entered and God bade Noah to come aboard, the door stood open. But when Noah (the last to be saved) entered the ark, the door was shut.

    Who invited Noah to come into the Ark? God.

    Was God inside or outside when He invited Noah to come into the ark? Inside.

    Were any other allowed into the ark? Nope - God shut the door.

    As it was in the days of Noah - so shall it be when the Christ returns.

    The gospel Noah preached was available to all men.

    None responded but his family.

    Only the ones chosen to be in the family of God will respond and be gathered into the ark by God's own invitation.
     
  7. agedman

    agedman
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    4,254
    Likes Received:
    185
    I was not speaking about Universalism with a capital "U" but the universal thinking of the non-cal.

    You perhaps read it to the extreme to which the non-cal position degenerates.

    Just as there are Hyper Calvinistic folks, there are the extreme non-cal folks called Universalists (with a capital "U").

    As far as the rest not being worth responding, perhaps now that you know you started off on the wrong point, you will be more obliged to respond.
     
  8. Wherever You Go

    Wherever You Go
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2013
    Messages:
    175
    Likes Received:
    0
    Even a strict Calvinist (and I am neither a strict Calvinist nor a non-calvinist) should see the verse as saying "because he does not wish for any to perish but for all to come to repentance" it really means that God does "Not wish" for any to perish, but some will anyway. Of course God wishes that all men would repent, but he called some to repent and did not call the rest. He wishes the others would repent, but they won't because He did not call them.

    There are several different levels of the Will of God.

    One level is His ultimate will. That which will come to pass, because He chooses it to, for His Glory.

    Another level is His perfect will. That is what He wishes would happen. He has a perfect will for our life, a "best thing" for us to do if we answer the call to do it, but so often we do not answer the call to do it.

    A third level is His general will. He has revealed this in the Bible in the commandments and admonitions. It is His will that we obey His commandments and admonitions.
     
  9. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    3,600
    Likes Received:
    0
    Universalism is Calvinistic more than arminian.

    They believe man can not do anything to save themselves and God wants all men to be saved so all men will be saved. Since man can't save themselves God will save all men.

    In the end they go through the purifying fire and return to God for an Aion. That was what i gleaned through a long debate with a a clergy he said in a universal Church
     
    #9 psalms109:31, May 28, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: May 28, 2013
  10. beameup

    beameup
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2011
    Messages:
    915
    Likes Received:
    2
    The texts are addressed to Jews - genetic Israelites.
    Under the dispensation of grace, Gentiles & some Jews are the "Church", the Bride of Christ.
    Peter's Epistle will have significance during the Tribulation (which is outside the dispensation of grace).
    Paul is the "apostle to the Gentiles" (and some Jews). :wavey:
     
  11. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,515
    Likes Received:
    49
    Missing the Gospel

    Hi Agedman, I included the Calvinist view which is mistaken.

    1) Calvinism claims only the ones chosen will respond. However, Matthew 23:13 has men responding, even entering heaven, when they are blocked by false teachers and false doctrine. Thus the Calvinist premise is mistaken.

    2) Calvinism claims only the ones chosen will respond. However, Matthew 13:1-23 has 3 of the 4 soils responding in various degrees, thus what the Bible teaches concerning some men, the first soil, Calvinism asserts wrongly affects all men.

    3) Calvinism claims few were chosen, but God calls men with the general call, but only calls the few, i.e. with irresistible grace, who were previously chosen. Wrong again, many are called but few are chosen. So by the numbers
    (1) Christ died for all men, for God desires all men be saved.

    (2) Through the work of the Holy Spirit, God's message, the gospel of Christ, is spread by believers.

    (3) Men, those still able to hear and understand the gospel, respond in various degrees.

    (4) God, who knows our hearts, credits (or not) our wholehearted faith and devotion to Christ as righteousness, and sets those credited apart in Christ, our conditional election. ​
     
    #11 Van, May 30, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: May 30, 2013
  12. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,548
    Likes Received:
    273
    Peter was the apostle to the Jews and the 'longsuffering to you-ward' is the forty years He gave the Jews to repent and avoid 'the wrath to come' upon that generation, i.e., 'save yourselves from this crooked generation' Acts 2:40; ...every soul that shall not hearken to that prophet, shall be utterly destroyed from among the people Acts 3:23; 'I gave her time that she should repent; and she willeth not to repent' Re 2:21; 'Come forth, my people, out of her, that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues' Re 18:4


    Correct, verse before that shows who is the audience.
     
    #12 kyredneck, May 30, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: May 30, 2013
  13. DrJamesAch

    DrJamesAch
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2012
    Messages:
    1,427
    Likes Received:
    0
    Could someone please tell me where "Second Ezekiel" is at?:eek:
     
  14. DrJamesAch

    DrJamesAch
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2012
    Messages:
    1,427
    Likes Received:
    0
    "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

    Peter was talking ABOUT heathen even though he was not talking TO them. Paul said "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ". Paul's audience was THessalonian believers, so does that mean that this verse was telling the Thessalonians they were being disobedient to the gospel and were about to lose their salvation? Or was Paul talking TO believers ABOUT the heathen.

    That is so elementary I can't believe it's used as an argument.

    Peter did not say "God is not willing that YOU should perish" He said ANY should perish. Reading that verse like these were believers would be "God is not willing that any believers should perish, but that all believers should come to repentance". Absurd.

    Those who are saved have ALREADY REPENTED. So are you saying that God wants all these "believers" here to come to repentance?

    "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent" Acts 17:30


    EZEKIEL.

    Doesn't matter who the audience is, the word says God had no pleasure in the death of the WICKED. The audience does not change what God desire (or did NOT desire in this passage).
     
    #14 DrJamesAch, May 30, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: May 30, 2013
  15. agedman

    agedman
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    4,254
    Likes Received:
    185
    Go back and read my response to this passage.

    You are missing the point of what Peter was instructing and giving as comfort to the folks of the church.
     
  16. DrJamesAch

    DrJamesAch
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2012
    Messages:
    1,427
    Likes Received:
    0
    And YOU are missing the point, it doesn't matter what the PURPOSE was in comforting believers, the comfort was the fact that they are not going to hell, and in that response God says He is NOT WILLING that ANY should perish. You can't rip the verse out of its context simply because it was about giving comfort. That's the most absurd logic I have ever heard.

    SO in other words, since the passage is about comforting believers, that nullifies what he said about God not willing that any should perish but that ALL come to repentance. Just admit you can't handle the verse against Calvinist theology and call it day.

    I'll respond to your post on the other thread tomorrow, but read Revelation 14 about wheat and tares and you'll see why Matthew 25 is talking about the tribulation.
     
  17. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    2 Peter 3:9 is nonsensical if Irresistible Grace is true;

    2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    Why does the Lord have to suffer long for our salvation if he can instantly regenerate a man with irresistible grace? That makes absolutely no sense at all, unless the Lord wants to make himself suffer.

    Calvinism perverts scripture to attempt to make it work with their false doctrine.

    At times it is downright embarrassing. This is one such case.
     
  18. agedman

    agedman
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    4,254
    Likes Received:
    185
    OH MY!!!!!!

    Here is Peter's whole point:

    "Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.” For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

    But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."


    How are you missing the point Peter is making????

    Peter is stating that those who scoff and scorn at matters concerning the Lord's return neglect to remember that God's word is without repentance. There is no shadow of turning with Him.

    He is NOT talking about all people everywhere, but he is talking about the Lord WILL come when the very LAST of the chosen is brought to salvation. Peter is not writing to the heathen, but to the church that wonders if the Lord has already returned and they missed the news.

    I am so sorry this discernible intent of Peter is being missed.

    On a side, the end of this section of Scriptures is really neat. I love the way Peter pays homage to Paul and then tells how some will be lead astray:

    "Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen."

    Perhaps some will miss Peter's intent here, too, and consider that those Peter is writing are carried away, and fall from their own steadfastness perhaps needing to be saved again.

    I wonder if some consider belief and faith synonymous?
     
  19. agedman

    agedman
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    4,254
    Likes Received:
    185
    You like Dr._ach miss the point of Peter.

    He is not talking about salvation, he is talking about the return of Christ. That it will not take place until the chance for salvation is over - the last person chosen to be saved is saved.

    I do wish that sometime a post by a non-cal person can actually be made without thinking that they have to make attempts at slamming the cals.

    It gets old,
    And frankly it really cheapens the post.

    Once in a while - fine, but prove your point by Scriptures and leave the rest to those lesser in skill.
     
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    17,023
    Likes Received:
    47
    that is his point, taht when the final elected sinner becaomes a saint, then the lord jesus will return!
     

Share This Page

Loading...