2. Pre-Trib Rapture2 is scriptural

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Ed Edwards, Jan 8, 2009.

  1. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    First we show that the spread between two resurrection1s
    (Dead raised from the dead)
    is hour = day = 1,000 years

    John 5:28-29 (KJV1611 Edition):
    Marueile not at this: for the houre is comming, in the which all that are in the graues shall heare his voice,
    29 And shall come foorth, they that haue done good, vnto the resurrection of life, and they that haue done euill, vnto the resurrection of damnation.


    *1a In an hour,
    *1b the good will be resurrected to life
    *1c and the evil will be resurrected to damnation

    Revelation 20:1-7
    And I saw an Angel come down from heauen, hauing the key of the bottomles pit, & a great chaine in his hand.
    Rev 20:2 And hee laid hold on the dragon that old serpent, which is the deuill and Satan, and bound him a thousand yeres,
    Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomlesse pit, and shut him vp, and set a seale vpon him, that he should deceiue the nations no more, till the thousand yeeres should bee fulfilled: and after that hee must be loosed a little season.
    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sate vpon them, and iudgement was giuen vnto them: & I saw the soules of them that were beheaded for the witnesse of Iesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had receiued his marke vpon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they liued and reigned with Christ a thousand yeeres.
    Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead liued not againe vntill the thousand yeeres were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    Rev 20:6 Blessed & holy is he that hath part in ye first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be Priests of God, and of Christ, and shall reigne with him a thousand yeeres.
    Rev 20:7 And when the thousand yeeres are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison


    *2.a The First Resurrection (of the just /in-Christ/ ) occurs before the Millennium;
    *2.b the implied Second Resurrection (of the unjust /non in-Christ/ ) after the Millennium.

    *3.a. The resurrection before the Millennium is a resurrection of life
    *3.b. The resurrection after the Millennium is a resurrection of damnation


    2 Peter 3:8-10 (KLJV1611 Edition):
    But (beloued) bee not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand yeeres, and a thousand yeeres as one day.
    9 The Lord is not slacke cocerning his promise (as some men count slacknesse) but is long-suffring to vs-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
    10 But the day of the Lord wil come as a thiefe in the night, in the which the heauens shall passe away with a great noise, and the Elements shall melt with feruent heate, the earth also and the works that are therin shalbe burnt vp.



    *4a the 'day of the Lord' is like 1,000 years to the Lord
    *4b 1,000 years is like a 'day of the Lord' to the Lord

    * Note: the star (*) denotes Stuff a Dispensation Teacher (namely Ed) says. This is a repeat of what the scripture says (if you want to say THAT IS NOT WHAT IT SAYS, refer to the item by number that we might discuss it further). Be sure to give the scripture that has not been properly understood. And other scripture that makes it clearer what is going on.

    Definitions suggested by the scriptures which do NOT cause one to have to disbelieve any of the above three scriptures or eliminate any of the three scriptures from the cannon. There is NO OTHER set of definitions that 'work' to disambiguate these three scriptures

    *5.a Millennium - Latin term for '1,000 years'
    *5.b First Resurrection = the type of resurrection(s) of the just /in-Christ/
    *5.c Second Resurrection = the type of resurrection (s) of the unjust /non in-Christ/

    *5.d hour = the appropriate time
    *5. e day = the appropriate time
    (following line repeated from above)
    *4. 1,000 years = day
    -------------- (things equal to the same thing are equal to each other)
    1,000 years = the appropriate time
    1,000 years = hour

    Now I ask:

    1. Can we ignore or eliminate John 5:28-29?
    Rephrased - Did Messiah Jesus lie?
    NO

    2. Can we ignore or eliminate Revelation 20:1-7?
    Rephrased - Did the Lord lie through John?
    NO

    3. Can we ignore or eliminate 2 Peter 3:8-10?
    Rephrased - Did the Lord lie through Peter?
    NO.
     
  2. OldRegular

    OldRegular
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    You can't prove Rapture 1 so you now try to prove Rapture 2. I pulled that when I left off working on the first million and started on the 2nd.
     
  3. Ed Edwards

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    Rapture1 = 'caught up'

    Whatever 'caught up' means in this scripture is what 'rapture1' means in my writings. Figure it out for yourself.

    1 Thessalonians 4:17 (KJV1611 Edition):
    Then we which are aliue, and remaine, shalbe caught vp together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the aire: and so shall wee euer bee with the Lord.
     
  4. OldRegular

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    Caught up is what happens to the Saints of all ages during the general resurrection. I thought everyone knew that Ed.
     
  5. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Resurrection1 = "the dead in Christ shall rise first" in this scripture:


    1 Thess 4:16 (KJV1611 Edition):
    For the Lord himselfe shall descend from heauen with a shout, with the voyce of the Archangel, and with the trumpe of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.


    Rapture2 is a set of events held by Jesus: a resurrection1 followed immediately by a rapture1. This event set will happen Before the Tribulation Period Judgment

    Resurrection2 is a set of events held by Jesus: a resurrection1 followed immediately by a rapture1. This event set will happen AFTER the Tribulation Period Judgment.
     
  6. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Then you agree, there is a rapture1 (Caught up)?

    I understand you disagree with what I call the rapture2. But really, you should say 'I don't believe in a rapture2'. If you say 'I don't believe in a rapture' you could be mistaken as saying 'I don't believe in a CAUGHT UP'.

    how can anybody deny the CAUGHT UP? It is like scripture, eh?
     
  7. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    tee hee!
    I worked 24 years (1976-2000) as an electrical engineer before I made my first million$. I then started working on the second million. I guess prior to 1976 one could work 24 years and not even make 1/4 a million?
     
  8. OldRegular

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    If you want to call rapture 2 the immediate resurrection of the unsaved following the resurrection of the saved that is okay with me Ed. Then both groups will stand before Jesus Christ at the Great White Throne Judgment.

    Glad you finally see the light Ed! that is worth :thumbs: :thumbs:
     
  9. Palatka51

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    :laugh: :laugh:
     
  10. Marcia

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    OldRegular, you are amil, right? Do all amils believe that everyone will stand before the Great White Throne Judgment?

    I think only unbelievers will be at that judgment. It's such a terrible judgment that "earth and heaven fled away." It also says that people are judged according to their deeds, which will not happen to believers as far as salvation goes.


     
  11. Me4Him

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    I'm not following you on this 2 rapture, let me give you my sequence of events, then you can tell me where this 2 rapture fits in.

    1. Church rapture (day of Christ)

    2. Trib period

    3. Jesus's return (day of the lord)

    4. MK, satan bound

    5. Satan loose, Jerusalem attacked,

    6. GWT (day of God)

    7. New Heaven/Earth.
     
  12. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    So you admit that my Eschatology Theory is DIFFERENT from others. I worked out my own salvation with the Holy Trinity (It is 100% about Jesus). So your package arguments against the dispies won't work with me. Check out what I say. While I'm giving a Respected Elder with unsolicited advise, consider this: check what I say - it is different that what you read elsewhere.

    If the Lord tarries beyond when I die, I'll be resurrected & glorified at the pre-tribulation Rapture2.

    Amen
    Praise the Lord
    Praise Hashem
    Amen!


    The Lord has two groups of elect in two different ages:
    1. National Israel
    2. Time of the Gentiles folk

    The Lord has two groups called 'Church' in two different ages:
    1. National Israel
    2. Time of the Gentiles folk

    This Lord has two groups of saints in two different ages:
    1. National Israel
    2. Time of the Gentiles folk
     
  13. Ed Edwards

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    0. Time of the Gentiles --- you are here

    1. Church rapture (day of Christ) - this is the Rapture2 (Jesus Saves!)

    2. Trib period

    3. Jesus's return (day of the lord)

    4. MK, satan bound

    5. Satan loose, Jerusalem attacked,

    6. GWT (day of God)

    7. New Heaven/Earth.

    I use the terms 'rapture1' (saved folks getting caught up and getting a new body) and 'rapture2' ( a pre-trib rapture1 following a resurrection1) to razz folks who are a-mill who say 'there is no rapture'. Of course they mean there is no pre-trib rapture2. Rapture1 is all about being caught up and getting a new body and being glorified along with our Lord and Savior: Messiah Jesus.

    BTW, I also get upset when I give all kinds of slack to a-mills by saying "a-mills believe in a real/spiritual Second Coming of Jesus" and they tell me I'm writing fiction. Is everything I write fiction? Don't I use more scripture than the a-mills?

    a-mills come in two types:

    1. A-tribs believe that the Tribulation Judgment Period is NOW (real/spiritual)

    2. post-trib only rapture1 (Tribulation Judgement Period is real/physical) and the Christians will go into the Tribulation)

    Well, if you non-pre-tribs don't define your terms, I sure will :saint:
     
  14. Ed Edwards

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    Caution: Scripture Proof Zone

    Amy.G on a nearby topic: // True. But having read those books and another one by Tim LaHaye (Are we in the end times?) and reading about Disp.ism on the BB is what has led to my confusion on the subject. I have never been able to make sense of this doctrine.//

    Brother Elder OldRegular: // That is because the doctrine is not Biblical and cannot make sense. It fictionalizes the Incarnation by claiming that Jesus Christ came to establish a Messianic Kingdom for the Jews. No one on this forum could offer Scripture to the contrary! //


    Tee Hee, cause the one with the Scripture evidence was posting on another forum where you ignored him. Well, now listen to my proofs:
    (I am not your run of the mill dispy, so your sermon notes "How do dissemble pre-tribs" won't work on me ;) )

    OldReg: // It fictionalizes the Incarnation by claiming that Jesus Christ came to establish a Messianic Kingdom for the Jews. //

    Here is my essay that says JUST THE OPPOSITE
    ---------------------------------

    The Greek word 'katabole' is translated foundation
    and with 'cosmos' is translated 'foundation of the world'.

    In the New Testament there are 10 occurrences of
    'foundation of the world'. There are two conditions:

    pro (before)
    apo (since or from)

    Seven start with 'apo'
    Three start with 'pro'

    The differences are doctrinaly significant:
    the three starting with 'pro' has to do with
    God's love of Christ, God's selection of Christ,
    and Christ's selection of we Christ-ones.


    1 Pe 1:20 (KJV1611): before = pro
    Who verily was foreordeined before the foundation
    of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.

    Jesus' sacrifice for the Church (us)
    was foreordained before the foundation of the world

    From Strongs:


    G2602
    καταβολή

    katabolē
    kat-ab-ol-ay'
    From G2598; a deposition, that is, founding; figuratively conception: - conceive, foundation.




    Rev 17:8 (KJV1769): from = apo
    The beast that thou sawest, was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the
    bottomlesse pit, and goe into perdition, and they that dwell on the earth shall
    wonder, (whose names were not written in the booke of life from the foundation
    of the world) when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

    [ BTW, the Jews (not the Christians) were "written in the book of
    life from the foundation of the world".
    So this passage is about Jewish/Israeli so the
    Tribulation period is for the Jewish/Israeli
    By contrast, the Christians were "written in the book of
    life before the foundation of the world" ]


    Foundation of the World in KJV1769:

    Mt 13:35 (KJV1769): from = apo
    That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying,
    I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have
    been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

    Matthew 25:34 (KJV1769): from = apo
    Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my
    Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

    Luke 11:50 (KJV1769): from = apo
    That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the
    world, may be required of this generation;

    John 17:24 (KJV1769): before = pro
    Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me,
    be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory,
    which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me
    before the foundation of the world.

    *God the father gave we elect saints to the Son
    before (pro) the foundation of the world.

    Ephesians 1:4 (KJV1769): before = pro
    According as he hath chosen us in him before
    the foundation of the world, that we should
    be holy and without blame before him in love:

    *God chose those in the Son (we Christians) before
    the foundation of the world

    Hebrews 4:3 (KJV1769): from = apo
    For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said,
    As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest:
    although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

    Hebrews 9:26 (KJV1769): since = apo
    For then must he often have suffered since the foundation
    of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath
    he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

    Revelation 13:8 (KJV1769): from = apo
    And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not
    written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
    --------------------------------------
    *Largely gentile Christian born-again elect saints
    (the Church) was Plan A.
    (God's plan from before the world was conceived)

    *The Jewish/Israeli chosen nation elect saints were Plan B.
    (God's plan from since [or after] the world was conceived)

    //No one on this forum could offer Scripture to the contrary!//

    I count about nine verses here :)
     
  15. OldRegular

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    Ed

    Not a single verse posted above had anything to do with the claim that Jesus Christ came the first time to establish a Messianic Kingdom for the Jews. That is the reason I say the claim is fictional. Actually most of the Scripture you posted refer to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for His Bride, the Church.
     
  16. Me4Him

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    God "wanted" Israel to be a light to the Gentiles, Jesus was only sent to lost sheep of the "house of Israel", and offer to take Israel "Under his wings" but "Ye would not".

    In any case, Jesus would still have to "die for sin", but,

    Suppose they had accepted the offer, and Jesus remained on the earth, would it be any different than the MK??

    During the MK sin still exist, even with Jesus ruling from Jerusalem, some refuse to keep the Feast of Tabernacle and when Satan is turned loose, he gathers an army to attack Jerusalem again.

    Of Course we'll never know what "Could have happened", but we do know that it "was possible",

    "I WOULD, YE WOULDN"T".
     
  17. Grasshopper

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    Is there sin and death in the New Heavens and New Earth? Did the OT prophets predict this New Heavens and New Earth?
     
  18. Me4Him

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    1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

    Death is destroyed at the GWT, only the "Righteous" survive to inhabit the New Heaven/Earth, death don't exist anymore.
     
  19. Grasshopper

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    Is there sin in the New Heavens and New Earth and did the OT prophets prophesy of them?
     
  20. OldRegular

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    Only the Church, the Bride of Jesus Christ, including all the elect, and thus all the redeemed of all time, inhabit the New Heavens and New Earth. There is no sin there.

    Revelation 22:11,14, & 15 affirm this.

    11. He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
    14. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
    15. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

    At least one Old Testament Prophet did prophesy of the New Heavens and New Earth:

    Isaiah 65:17. For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
    Isaiah 66:22. For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
     

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