2 Thess. 2:1-4, the Rapture

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by prophecynut, Aug 14, 2005.

  1. prophecynut

    prophecynut
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    The Lord is coming for those who belong to him (1 Cor. 15:23) who are waiting for the "blessed hope" (Titus 2:3). "Our being gathered to him" or the Rapture is associated with heavenly reward (2 Tim 4:8), never the judgments of the Tribualtion. Paul never instructs the Church how to prepare for it or warns us of the earthly judgments given in Mt. 24, Revelation and the Second Coming.

    The Thessalonians could not of been alarmed about missing the Rapture, they were reading Paul's letter of encouragement to the congregation and all were accounted for. If somebody came to your church with the same false prophecy, what would be your reaction? They were unsettled because of a false report that they were in the midst of the day of the Lord. 1 Thess. 3:3,7 confirms trials and tribulations were causing the Thessalonians to be "unsettled or alarmed."

    Some versions have "day of Christ" and others have "day of the Lord," with the latter being correct due to the context of this chapter. The Thessalonians were suffering trials and tribulations somewhat similar to what the day of the Lord would be like. Mentioned in this chapter is the man of lawlessness, opposition to God, works of Satan, counterfeit miracles, every sort of evil and wickedness. Surely this points to the Tribulation and that day of judgment and not to the day of Chirst and his glorious appearing for the Church.

    Before our gathering to him and the destruction of that day, a specific act of rebellion embodied in "the man of lawlessness" or Antichrist must be revealed in the "temple, proclaiming himself to be God." His revealing is never mentioned in the OT, Mt. 24 or Revelation, only in the Epistles that apply to the Church Age which ends before God's judgment begins. It was a sign given to the Thessslonians and the Church today that "our gathering to him" will soon follow his revealing. If the church was raptured before it, Paul's instructions would not be needed because we would not be on earth to see it.
     
  2. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T
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    The apostle Paul, in his second letter to the Thessalonians, foretold the great apostasy which would result in the establishment of the papal power. He declared that the day of Christ should not come, "except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God." And furthermore, the apostle warns his brethren that "the mystery of iniquity doth already work." 2 Thessalonians 2:3, 4, 7. Even at that early date he saw, creeping into the church, errors that would prepare the way for the development of the papacy.

    Little by little, at first in stealth and silence, and then more openly as it increased in strength and gained control of the minds of men, "the mystery of iniquity" carried forward its deceptive and blasphemous work. Almost imperceptibly the customs of heathenism found their way into the Christian church. The spirit of compromise and conformity was restrained for a time by the fierce persecutions which the church endured under paganism. But as persecution ceased, and Christianity entered the courts and palaces of kings, she laid aside the humble simplicity of Christ and His apostles for the pomp and pride of pagan priests and rulers; and in place of the requirements of God, she substituted human theories and traditions. The nominal conversion of Constantine, in the early part of the fourth century, caused great rejoicing; and the world, cloaked with a form of righteousness, walked into the church. Now the work of corruption rapidly progressed. Paganism, while appearing to be vanquished, became the conqueror. Her spirit controlled the church. Her doctrines, ceremonies, and superstitions were incorporated into the faith and worship of the professed followers of Christ.

    This compromise between paganism and Christianity resulted in the development of "the man of sin" foretold in prophecy as opposing and exalting himself above God. That gigantic system of false religion is a masterpiece of Satan's power--a monument of his efforts to seat himself upon the throne to rule the earth according to his will.

    It is one of the leading doctrines of Romanism that the pope is the visible head of the universal church of Christ, invested with supreme authority over bishops and pastors in all parts of the world. More than this, the pope has been given the very titles of Deity. He has been styled "Lord God the Pope", and has been declared infallible. He demands the homage of all men. The same claim urged by Satan in the wilderness of temptation is still urged by him through the Church of Rome, and vast numbers are ready to yield him homage.
     
  3. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T
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    THE TRUTH ABOUT THE RAPTURE by Michael Scheifler


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    Luke 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
    Luke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
    Luke 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    Luke 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    Luke 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

    The above passage is frequently quoted to support a "secret" rapture, that neither the saved or the lost will be aware of what is happening at the time. Supposedly, millions of Christians will be "taken" and simply disappear mysteriously, leaving the world wondering where they went. Just what does this passage really intend to teach? Well, first let's look at a parallel passage in Matthew:

    Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
    ...
    Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
    Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

    Note that in verse 39, the wicked who perished in the flood are described as being taken away. The wicked are taken first, not the righteous. Next, it tells us that it shall be exactly the same at the second coming of the Lord. Clearly in in days of Noah, those taken first perished, and so it will be again at the second coming. Now notice that in Luke 17, verse 37, a question is asked: "Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together". This answer given by Jesus refers to the vultures gathering over the bodies of the wicked, those taken first, which are all slain at the second coming. (See also Rev 19:20-21) So Jesus was not teaching a silent or secret rapture of the righteous away from the world. He was making it clear, that at His second coming, all the wicked will be taken and slain first, before the righteous are taken to heaven. This destruction of the wicked is completely ignored by those teaching the secret rapture.

    The Second Coming Described

    The following verses all show that with respect to the second coming, Jesus will indeed come quickly-

    Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

    Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

    Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

    Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

    Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    And the following verses refer to the second coming of Jesus as being like a thief for the wicked-

    Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

    Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

    1 Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

    It should be quite clear that all the above verses are indeed referring to the second coming of Jesus. He will come quickly, like lightning, as a thief upon the unsuspecting wicked of the world. But is it a secret, silent event?

    2 Pet 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
    2 Pet 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
    2 Pet 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

    1 Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    It will be the noisiest, most climactic event in history, not a silent, mysterious secret.

    The Parable of the Tares of the Field.

    Now, in the book of Matthew, Jesus tells a parable about the end of the world, which is intended to explain some end time events of the second coming:

    Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
    Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
    Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
    Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
    Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
    Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
    Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

    Jesus then explains the parable in detail to His disciples:

    Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
    Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
    Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
    Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
    Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
    Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
    Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
    Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

    Note the timing of events Jesus describes, and how it compares with those taken first in Matthew 24:39-42. At the end of the world, when the time for the harvest of humanity has come, it is not the righteous who are gathered first, it is the wicked! The wicked are taken and dealt with first, while the people of God are still among them. Advocates of the popular pre-tribulation rapture propose that all righteous Christians will first be taken up by Jesus secretly, in an instant, leaving behind a totally non-Christian world in startled ignorance of why a significant portion of the population has simply disappeared off the face of the earth. The secret rapture theory is the reverse sequence of the parable as told by Jesus, and so can be dismissed on this point alone! Jesus in the book of Matthew again confirms that the wicked will be taken out from among the righteous:

    Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
    Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

    The Lesson of Noah and the flood, and Lot and Sodom

    The 17th chapter of Luke, which we began this study with, again makes it plain that the wicked will all perish at the return of Christ:

    Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
    Luke 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
    Luke 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
    Luke 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
    Luke 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

    The lesson is clear. Sudden destruction comes upon the wicked at the second coming. They will all perish.

    The Seven Last Plagues.

    Now let me point out an interesting fact. Revelation 16 relates the last seven plagues being poured out on the unrepentant wicked of the earth. Through verse 12 the first six of the plagues are poured out, and THEN in verse 15-

    Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

    Clearly Jesus HAS NOT COME YET AT THE TIME OF THE SIXTH PLAGUE! Now, note the counsel given to the church of Laodicea:

    Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

    The counsel addressed the church of Laodicea, the final church, is given to that church in Rev 16:15 - after the sixth plague has fallen, so obviously the church has gone through the preceding plagues! Note that the seventh plague then falls in verse 17-

    Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
    Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

    Jesus at the time of the seventh plague is announcing that time for earth has come to an end, and the second coming follows immediately. So Jesus does not come back to earth until after all seven plagues have been poured out on the wicked. The faithful church was NOT removed at any point prior to these plagues, they have endured them without fear of being affected by them:

    Psa 91:5 Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day;
    Psa 91:6 Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday.
    Psa 91:7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.
    Psa 91:8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.
    Psa 91:9 Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;
    Psa 91:10 There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.
    Psa 91:11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.

    So the wicked will suffer the 7 last plagues, while the people of God are still present with them on this earth.

    Does the Second Coming Happen Secretly?

    There are two verses where Jesus himself described exactly how he would come back to this earth. These words were spoken to the high priest of the Jews - Caiaphas:

    Mat 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

    Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

    Jesus says that Caiaphas will be alive (resurrected) to see him return in his full glory, in the clouds of heaven. This is a significant key to his return. It is a direct link to -

    Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

    So as the above study shows:


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    (1). AFTER THE 7 PLAGUES OF REV 16 FALL ON THE WICKED, AND NOT BEFORE, JESUS COMES IN THE CLOUDS.


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    (2). EVERY EYE WILL SEE HIS COMING.


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    The return of Jesus (in the clouds) will be witnessed by every living person on this earth at the time. In addition, those who had a part in the crucifixion of Jesus (pierced him) will be resurrected to witness this glorious event as well, to include Caiaphas.

    Jesus coming in the clouds is mentioned in the following texts as well. It is an important discriminator between the genuine coming of Jesus and the impersonation of Jesus by Satan-

    Psa 97:2 Clouds and darkness are round about him: righteousness and judgment are the habitation of his throne.

    Psa 104:3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:

    Jer 4:13 Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe unto us! for we are spoiled.

    Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

    Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

    Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
    Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.


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    (3). HE COMES IN HIS FULL POWER AND GLORY, TO THEN REWARD EVERY MAN.


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    If, as we have established in point (3), every eye will see him coming in all his glory, what is the fate of the then living wicked who behold him?

    Exo 33:20 And he (God/Jesus) said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

    Deu 4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

    Deu 5:25 Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the LORD our God any more, then we shall die.
    Deu 5:26 For who is there of all flesh, that hath heard the voice of the living God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived?

    Deu 9:3 Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee.

    Psa 37:9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.
    Psa 37:10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.

    Psa 37:18 The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever.
    Psa 37:19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time: and in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.
    Psa 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

    Psa 37:28 For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
    Psa 37:29 The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.

    Psa 37:34 Wait on the LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.
    Psa 37:35 I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree.
    Psa 37:36 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.
    Psa 37:37 Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright: for the end of that man is peace.
    Psa 37:38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.
    Psa 37:39 But the salvation of the righteous is of the LORD: he is their strength in the time of trouble.
    Psa 37:40 And the LORD shall help them, and deliver them: he shall deliver them from the wicked, and save them, because they trust in him.

    Psa 50:3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

    Psa 110:5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
    Psa 110:6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.

    Prov 2:21 For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it.
    Prov 2:22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it.

    Prov 10:27 The fear of the LORD prolongeth days: but the years of the wicked shall be shortened.
    Prov 10:28 The hope of the righteous shall be gladness: but the expectation of the wicked shall perish.
    Prov 10:29 The way of the LORD is strength to the upright: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.
    Prov 10:30 The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.

    Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

    Jer 25:33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.

    Luke 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
    Luke 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
    Luke 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

    Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

    2 Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
    2 Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    2 Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

    2 Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

    Luke 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

    Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

    Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished....

    The wicked who see Jesus at the second coming will be cut off, they will perish, because sinful man cannot look upon the face of God in His full glory and live. Just as the parable of the wheat and tares declares (Matt 13:24-43), the wicked will all perish first, before the righteous are gathered.


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    (4). THE WICKED WILL ALL BE SLAIN AT JESUS' SECOND COMING BY THE FIRE OF HIS RIGHTEOUS GLORY, TO BE RESURRECTED AFTER THE 1000 YEARS.
     
  4. prophecynut

    prophecynut
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    What a waste of band width, out of all that mess you only have one verse on the Rapture.
     
  5. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T
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    Gnosticism enters the Early Church as well as the Papacy taking

    formation


    In II Thessalonians Chapter 2 we were warned that there would come a

    "falling away" in the Church and that this "mystery of iniquity (sin)" was

    already at work.

    Gnosticism also began to appear in the latter part of the First Century

    of the Christian Era. Its influence upon New Age thought is undeniable,

    as New Agers freely admit.The Gnostics tried to interpret Christianity in

    terms of pagan philosophies, which came from Greek, Egyptian, and

    Babylonian metaphysics. They took the various teachings from these

    Occult Mystery Schools, and then attempted to fit the teachings into a

    new 'Christian' setting, claiming that Gnosticism was the true form of

    Christianity.

    The Gnostics became a sect that claimed to possess a "Secret

    Knowledge'" that made them superior to the common Christians, who

    were not privileged to have the same information that they themselves

    had. They asserted that Christ had allowed them to inherit the Secret

    Doctrines or esoteric (hidden) teachings of God's Word. And by

    combining pagan philosophies with the apostolic doctrines of

    Christianity, Gnosticism became a very strong influence in the ancient

    Church. But the true Christians labeled it as 'heresy' and fought

    vigorously against it!

    Now these Gnostics claimed that they could know God, yet this

    so-called "knowing" was not backed up by obedience to God. This war

    by the true Christians against Gnosticism in the early church can be

    seen by the words of John. Many Christians in his day claimed to

    "know" God, but John let them know in no uncertain terms that their

    claim was false, unless it was backed up by obedience to His

    commandments! 1Jn:2:3: And hereby we do know that we know him, if

    we keep his commandments. 1Jn:2:4: He that saith, I know him, and

    keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

    The false doctrine is now largely taught that the Gospel of Christ has

    made the Law of God of no effect; that by "believing" we are released

    from the necessity of being doers of the word. But this is the doctrine of

    the Nicolaitans, which Christ so unsparingly condemned. The

    Nicolaitans were a Gnostic sect. To the church of Ephesus JOHN said:

    "I know thy works, and thy labor, and thy patience, and how thou canst

    not bear them which are evil; and thou hast tried them which say they

    are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars; and hast borne,

    and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast labored, and hast not

    fainted. Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast

    left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and

    repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and

    will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. But

    this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I

    also hate.He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto

    the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life,

    which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Revelation 2:1-7
    The Nicolaitans were a Gnostic sect that plagued the church at

    Ephesus. The founder was Nicolas of Antioch, a convert to Judaism,

    one of the seven deacons (Acts 6:5). Adherants to this sect taught that

    deeds of the flesh do not affect the purity of the soul, and thus have no

    bearing on salvation. Notice that in I Jn 2:4 John said that those who do

    not keep the commandments yet claim to "know" God are LIARS and

    the truth is not in them. Then in Revelation 2:1-7 he commended the

    church of Ephesus for warring against the Nicolaitans- "and hast found

    them LIARS". That is because he is talking about the same identical

    thing... the Gnosticism that had entered into the church... the false

    teaching of "know God" without proving it by the keeping of the Law of

    God, the ten commandments!

    And so this idea of "all we have to do is believe" and just "know God"

    had it's origin in the Spiritualistic Gnosticism that had entered into the

    Early Church! Yet their claim to know God was not backed up by the

    keeping of His commandments. Thus John repeated several times that

    if a person really knows God, he will keep His commandments! He

    even repeated the same thought in Revealtion in regard to the

    Nicolaitans saying, "To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree

    of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Rev. 2:7


    And now, let's see what top New Age Personality, David Spangler has

    to say about the Law of God:

    'The evolution of the race is for man to learn not how to obey the law

    but how to be the law. There is a vast, vast difference. If you are the law

    it means that you are at one with the whole. For divine law simply

    exists. When a person understands this, then he begins to have that

    attunement, when he is the law, he is not going to act in any way that

    will disturb or distort the true balance of the true wholeness... The New

    Age is an age where there is needed that group of people who through

    attunement can be self-governing, act as the law, as the divine, as the

    right, as the love.'-David Spangler, 'Relationship and Identity', pg.

    89,91,93

    As you can see, New Agers see 'keeping-the Law' as doing everything

    that they can to 'keep in tune with the Great Universal All', and not in

    keeping God's Ten Commandment Law. They also believe that they

    themselves are 'The Law'. David Spangler, New Ager, makes it even

    clearer in this next statement about how he really feels about God's

    Law:

    'We can take all the Scriptures and all the teachings, and all the

    tablets and all the Laws, and all the marshmallows and have a jolly

    good bonfire and marshmallow roast, because that's all they are worth.

    Once you are the law, once you are the truth, you do not need it

    externally represented for you.' -David Spangler, 'Emergence: Rebirth of

    the Sacred', Findhorn Publications, pg. 144

    Keep in mind, New Ageism is based on Gnosticism/Spiritualism...

    which was the same thing as the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes... that

    your good deeds or bad deeds didnt mean anything.
    This same doctrine is taught in Christian Churches all over the land but

    they just put all different "spins" on the same false doctrine. Good

    works have become an "option" and not a "requirement" according to

    those who push this doctrine.


    "Christ consented to die in the sinner's stead, that man, by a life of

    obedience, might escape the penalty of the Law of God. His death did

    not make the Law of God of none effect; it did not slay the law, lessen

    its claims, or detract from its sacred dignity. The death of Christ

    proclaimed the justice of his Father's law in punishing the transgressor,

    in that he consented to suffer the penalty of the law transgressed

    himself, in order to save fallen man from its curse. The death of God's

    beloved Son on the cross shows the immutability of the Law of God.

    His death magnifies the Law and makes it honorable, and gives

    evidence to man of its changeless character. From his own divine lips

    are heard the words, "Think not that I am come to destroy the Law or

    the prophets; I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." The death of

    Christ justified the claims of the law.

    But the doctrine is now largely taught that the Gospel of Christ has

    made the Law of God of no effect; that by "believing" we are released

    from the necessity of being doers of the word. But this is the doctrine of

    the Nicolaitanes, which Christ so unsparingly condemned. To the

    church of Ephesus he says: 'I know thy works, and thy labor, and thy

    patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil; and thou

    hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast

    found them liars; and hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's

    sake hast labored, and hast not fainted. Nevertheless I have somewhat

    against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore

    from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I

    will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his

    place, except thou repent. But this thou hast, that thou hatest the

    deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.'

    Those who are teaching this doctrine today have much to say in regard

    to faith and the righteousness of Christ; but they pervert the truth, and

    make it serve the cause of error. They declare that we have only to

    believe on Jesus Christ, and that faith is all-sufficient; that the

    righteousness of Christ is to be the sinner's credentials; that this

    imputed righteousness fulfils the law for us, and that we are under no

    obligation to obey the law of God. This class claim that Christ came to

    save sinners, and that he has saved them. "I am saved," they will

    repeat over and over again. But are they saved while transgressing the

    law of Jehovah?--No; for the garments of Christ's righteousness are not

    a cloak for iniquity. Such teaching is a gross deception, and Christ

    becomes to these persons a stumbling-block as he did to the Jews,--to

    the Jews because they would not receive him as their personal Saviour;

    to these professed believers in Christ, because they separate Christ

    and the Law, and regard faith as a substitute for obedience. They

    separate the Father and the Son, the Saviour of the world. Virtually

    they teach, both by precept and example, that Christ, by his death,

    saves men in their transgressions.

    It is necessary that every intelligent being shall understand the

    principles of the law of God. Christ through the apostle James declares,

    "Whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is

    guilty of all." These words were spoken this side of the death of Christ;

    therefore the Law was binding upon all at that time. The Saviour raised

    his voice in protest against those who regard the divine commandments

    with indifference and carelessness. He said, 'Whosoever therefore shall

    break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he

    shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven; but whosoever shall

    do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of

    heaven." And he also declared, "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or

    one tittle shall in nowise pass from the Law till all be fulfilled.'

    Men may talk of freedom, of Gospel liberty. They may assert that they

    are not in bondage to the Law. But the influence of a Gospel hope will

    not lead the sinner to look upon the salvation of Christ as a matter of

    free grace, while he continues to live in transgression of the Law of

    God. When the light of truth dawns upon his mind, and he fully

    understands the requirements of God, and realizes the extent of his

    transgressions, he will reform his ways, become loyal to God through

    the strength obtained from his Saviour, and lead a new and purer life.

    'Whosoever abideth in him,' says John, 'sinneth not; whosoever sinneth

    hath not seen him, neither known him.'"
     
  6. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T
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    prophecynut,

    No Comment. [​IMG]
     
  7. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T
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    The Manner of Christ's Return

    One thousand years before Christ, the psalmist spoke of the Lord's coming to gather His people, saying, "Our God shall come, and shall not keep silent; a fire shall devour before Him, and it shall be very tempestuous all around Him. He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that He may judge His people: 'Gather My saints together to Me, those who have made a covenant with Me by sacrifice'" (Ps. 50:3-5).


    As Christ spoke about the signs that would indicate that His coming was near, He also indicated concern that His people not be deceived by false claims. He warned that before the Second Advent "'false christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to deceive, if possible, even the elect.'" He said, "'If anyone says to you, "Look, here is the Christ!" or "There!" do not believe it'" (Matt. 24:24, 23). Forewarned is forearmed. To enable believers to distinguish between the genuine event and a false coming, several Biblical passages reveal details of the manner in which Christ will return.


    A Literal and Personal Return. When Jesus ascended in a cloud, two angels addressed the disciples, who were still gazing up after their departed Lord: "'Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven'" (Acts 1:11).

    In other words, they said that the same Lord who had just left them—a personal, flesh-and-blood being, not some spirit entity (Luke 24:36-43)—would return to earth. And His Second Advent would be as literal and personal as His departure.

    A Visible Return. Christ's coming will not be an inward, invisible experience but a real meeting with a visible Person. Leaving no room whatsoever for doubt as to the visibility of His return, Jesus warned His disciples against being taken in by a secret second coming by comparing His return to the brilliance of lightning (Matt. 24:27).

    Scripture clearly states that the righteous and the wicked will simultaneously witness His coming. John wrote, "Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him" (Rev. 1:7), and Christ noted the response of the wicked: "'All the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory'" (Matt. 24:30).

    An Audible Return. Adding to the picture of a universal awareness of Christ's return is the Biblical assertion that His coming will be made known by sound as well as sight: "The Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God" (1 Thess. 4:16). The "'great sound of a trumpet'" (Matt. 24:31) accompanies the gathering of His people. There is no secrecy here.

    A Glorious Return. When Christ returns, He comes as a conqueror, with power and "'in the glory of His Father with His angels'" (Matt. 16:27). John the revelator portrays the glory of Christ's return in a most dramatic way. He pictures Christ riding on a white horse and leading the innumerable armies of heaven. The supernatural splendor of the glorified Christ is apparent (Rev. 19:11-16).

    A Sudden, Unexpected Return. Christian believers, longing and looking for Christ's return, will be aware when it draws near (1 Thess. 5:4-6). But for the inhabitants of the world in general, Paul wrote, "The day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, 'Peace and safety!' then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape" (1 Thess. 5:2, 3; cf. Matt. 24:43).

    Some have concluded that Paul's comparison of Christ's coming to that of a thief indicates that He will come in some secret, invisible manner. However, such a view contradicts the Biblical picture of Christ's return in glory and splendor in view of everyone (Rev. 1:7). Paul's point is not that Christ's coming is secret, but that, for the worldly minded, it is as unexpected as that of a thief.

    Christ makes the same point by comparing His coming with the unexpected destruction of the antediluvian world by the Flood. "'For as in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man'" (Matt. 24:38, 39, NIV). Though Noah had preached for many years about a coming flood, it took most people by surprise. There were two classes of people living. One class believed Noah's word and went into the ark and was saved, the other chose to stay outside the ark and the "'flood came and took them all away'" (Matt. 24:39).

    A Cataclysmic Event. Like the simile of the Flood, Nebuchadnezzar's dream of the metal image depicts the cataclysmic manner in which Christ will establish His kingdom of glory (see chapter 4 of this book). Nebuchadnezzar saw a great image whose "'head was of fine gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay.'" Then "'a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth'" (Dan. 2:32-35).

    Through this dream God gave Nebuchadnezzar a synopsis of world history. Between his day and the establishment of Christ's everlasting kingdom (the stone), four major kingdoms or empires and then a conglomeration of weak and strong nations would consecutively occupy the world's stage.

    Ever since the days of Christ interpreters have identified the empires as Babylon (605-539 B.C.), Medo-Persia (539-331 B.C.), Greece (331-168 B.C.), and Rome (168 B.C.-A.D. 476).1 As prophesied, no other empire succeeded Rome. During the fourth and fifth centuries A.D. it broke into a number of smaller kingdoms that later became the nations of Europe. Through the centuries, powerful rulers—Charlemagne, Charles V, Napoleon, Kaiser Wilhelm, and Hitler—have tried to establish another world empire. Each failed, just as the prophecy said: "'They will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay'" (Dan 2:43).

    Finally, the dream focuses on the dramatic climax: the setting up of God's everlasting kingdom. The stone cut out without hands represents Christ's kingdom of glory (Dan. 7:14; Rev. 11:15), which will be established without human effort at the Second Advent.


    Christ's kingdom is not to exist simultaneously with any human empire. When He was on earth during the sway of the Roman Empire, the stone kingdom that crushes all nations had not yet come. Only after the phase of the iron and clay feet, the period of the divided nations, would it arrive. It is to be set up at the Second Advent when Christ separates the righteous from the wicked (Matt. 25:31-34).

    When it comes, this stone or kingdom will strike the "'image on its feet of iron and clay'" and "'it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, '" leaving not a trace of them (Dan. 2:34, 44, 35). Indeed, the Second Advent is an earth-shaking event.

    The Second Advent and the Human Race
    Christ's second advent will touch both of the great divisions of humanity—those who have accepted Him and the salvation He brings, and those who have turned from Him.

    The Gathering of the Elect. An important aspect of the establishment of Christ's eternal kingdom is the gathering of all the redeemed (Matt. 24:31; 25:32-34; Mark 13:27) to the heavenly home Christ has prepared (John 14:3).

    When a head of state visits another country, only a few persons can be part of the welcoming party. But when Christ comes, every believer who has ever lived, regardless of age, gender, education, economic status, or race, will participate in the grand Advent celebration. Two events make possible this universal gathering: the resurrection of the righteous dead and the translation of the living saints.

    1. The resurrection of the dead in Christ. At the sound of the trumpet announcing Christ's return, the righteous dead will be raised incorruptible and immortal (1 Cor. 15:52, 53). At that moment the "dead in Christ will rise first" (1 Thess. 4:16). In other words, they are raised before the living righteous are caught up to be with the Lord.

    Resurrected ones reunite with those who sorrowed at their departure. Now they exult, "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" (1 Cor. 15:55, KJV). It is not the diseased, aged, mutilated bodies that went down into the grave that come up in the resurrection, but new, immortal, perfect bodies, no longer marked by the sin that caused their decay. The resurrected saints experience the completion of Christ's work of restoration, reflecting the perfect image of God in mind, soul, and body (1 Cor. 15:42-54; see chapter 25 of this book).

    2. The translation of the living believers. When the righteous dead are resurrected, the righteous who are living on the earth at the Second Coming will be changed. "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality" (1 Cor. 15:53).


    At Christ's return no group of believers takes precedence over any other believers. Paul reveals that the living and transformed believers "shall be caught up together with them [the resurrected believers] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord" (1 Thess. 4:17; cf. Heb. 11:39, 40). So all the believers will be present at the grand Advent gathering, both the resurrected saints of all ages and those who are alive at Christ's return.

    The Death of the Unbelievers. To the saved the Second Advent is a time of joy and exhilaration, but to the lost it will be a time of devastating terror. They have resisted Christ's love and His invitations to salvation so long that they have become ensnared in deceptive delusions (see 2 Thess. 2:9-12; Rom. 1:28-32). When they see the One they have rejected coming as King of kings and Lord of lords, they know the hour of their doom has struck. Overwhelmed with terror and despair, they call upon the inanimate creation to shelter them (Rev. 6:16, 17).

    At this time God will destroy Babylon, the union of all apostate religions. "'She will be utterly burned with fire'" (Rev. 18:8). The leader of this confederation—the mystery of iniquity, the lawless one—"the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming" (2 Thess. 2:8). The powers responsible for enforcing the mark of the beast (see chapter 12) will be cast "into the lake of fire burning with brimstone." And the rest of the wicked will be "killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse"—Jesus Christ the Lord (Rev. 19:20, 21).
     
  8. prophecynut

    prophecynut
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    Burn them Ellen White books, now!
     
  9. billwald

    billwald
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    Lord been comming for 2,000 years. Nothing we can do about it and nothing that can be planned for. We gots to live in this world for now.
     
  10. eschatologist

    eschatologist
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    "Lord's been coming for 2000 years." Wow there's a good one, especially since he was coming "soon" and the time was "near!"
     
  11. prophecynut

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    So true, but from Scripture we can know how close we are.

    God has "torn us (Israel) to pieces" and "he has injured us" by having Jerusalem destroyed by the Romans 70 AD. During the Millennium He "will heal us" and "will bind up our wounds." Two days or two thousand years after 70 AD "he will revive us; on the third day he will restore us, that we may live in his presence" (Hosea 6:1-2). NIV
     
  12. 1jim

    1jim
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    Hi prophecynut,


    prophecynut:

    The Thessalonians could not of been alarmed about missing the Rapture, they were reading Paul's letter of encouragement to the congregation and all were accounted for. If somebody came to your church with the same false prophecy, what would be your reaction? They were unsettled because of a false report that they were in the midst of the day of the Lord. 1 Thess. 3:3,7 confirms trials and tribulations were causing the Thessalonians to be "unsettled or alarmed."


    Jim:

    In 1 Thessalonians 3, Paul and his fellow workers were suffering afflictions in Athens, and Paul was worried that the Thessalonians might be moved by their afflictions in Athens, so he sent Timothy to strengthen the Thessalonians. When Timothy reported back that the Thessalonians were strong in faith and love, he and his fellow workers were comforted in their afflictions in Athens by this report.

    In 2 Thessalonians 1, Paul praises the exemplary Thessalonians for the patience and faith with which they face their own afflictions.

    So the Thessalonians were not moved by afflictions.

    However, in 2 Thessalonians 2, Paul was worried that the Thessalonians might be moved by a false teaching regarding the coming of the Lord and our gathering together to Him that the Day of the Lord was present, that is, that the coming of the Lord and our gathering together to Him was imminent. Paul reminded the Thessalonians of what he had already taught them, assuring them that the coming of the Lord and our gathering together to Him could not be imminent, because the prerequisite revealing of the man of sin had not yet occurred, whose destruction would occur at the coming of the Lord. It is not certain whether the Thessalonians were actually moved by this false teaching or whether Paul was just worried that they might be moved by it.

    There are at least two plausible reasons why the Thessalonians might be moved by this false teaching: (1) the contradiction between this false teaching and what Paul had already taught the Thessalonians might cause confusion among the Thessalonians, or (2) the exemplary Thessalonians might have altruistically taken comfort in Paul’s teaching that the longer the Lord delayed His coming, the more people would be saved (2 Peter 3:15), and this false teaching that the coming of the Lord and our gathering together to Him was imminent might have therefore moved the Thessalonians and troubled them.

    In light of 2 Timothy 2:18, where Paul refers to a false teaching that the resurrection has already happened, which actually does subvert the faith of some, it’s also possible that the false teaching in 2 Thessalonians 2 is that the coming of the Lord and our gathering together has already happened, as hard that would be to believe.


    prophecynut:

    Some versions have "day of Christ" and others have "day of the Lord," with the latter being correct due to the context of this chapter. The Thessalonians were suffering trials and tribulations somewhat similar to what the day of the Lord would be like. Mentioned in this chapter is the man of lawlessness, opposition to God, works of Satan, counterfeit miracles, every sort of evil and wickedness. Surely this points to the Tribulation and that day of judgment and not to the day of Chirst and his glorious appearing for the Church.


    Jim:

    The Textus Receptus (TR) Greek text, on which the King James Version is based, says “h hmera tou cristou / the Day of Christ” in 2 Thessalonians 2:2, and the Westcott-Hort (WH) Greek text, on which the American Standard Version is based, says “h hmera tou kuriou / the Day of the Lord” in this verse.

    Both phrases “the Day of the Lord / the Day of Christ” are described in the New Testament as the point until which believers are to maintain their faith in Christ and to stay alert. The Bible doesn’t describe two future comings of the Lord but a single future coming of the Lord that will be experienced two different ways, depending on a person’s relationship with the Lord, either as a thief (destruction and wrath) or as salvation.


    The New Testament’s teaching of a single future coming of the Lord that will be experienced two different ways:

    (ASV) Matthew 24:29 But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN SHALL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON SHALL NOT GIVE HER LIGHT, AND THE STARS SHALL FALL FROM HEAVEN, AND THE POWERS OF THE HEAVENS SHALL BE SHAKEN: 30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see THE SON OF MAN COMING on THE CLOUDS of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of A TRUMPET, and they shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. ... 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not on what day YOUR LORD COMETH. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what watch THE THIEF WAS COMING, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken through. 44 Therefore be ye also ready; for in an hour that ye think not THE SON OF MAN COMETH. 45 Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath set over his household, to give them their food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant, WHOM HIS LORD WHEN HE COMETH SHALL FIND SO DOING. 47 Verily I say unto you, that HE WILL SET HIM OVER ALL THAT HE HATH. 48 But if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord tarrieth; 49 and shall begin to beat his fellow-servants, and shall eat and drink with the drunken; 50 THE LORD OF THAT SERVANT SHALL COME IN A DAY WHEN HE EXPECTETH NOT, AND IN AN HOUR WHEN HE KNOWETH NOT, 51 AND SHALL CUT HIM ASUNDER, and appoint his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

    (ASV) Luke 12:35 Let your loins be girded about, and your lamps burning; 36 and be ye yourselves like unto MEN LOOKING FOR THEIR LORD, WHEN HE SHALL RETURN FROM THE MARRIAGE FEAST; THAT, WHEN HE COMETH AND KNOCKETH, THEY MAY STRAIGHTWAY OPEN UNTO HIM. 37 Blessed are those servants, WHOM THE LORD WHEN HE COMETH SHALL FIND WATCHING: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them sit down to meat, and shall come and serve them. 38 And if HE SHALL COME in the second watch, and if in the third, and find [them] so blessed are those [servants]. 39 But know this, that if the master of the house had known in WHAT HOUR THE THIEF WAS COMING, he would have watched, and not have left his house to be broken through. 40 Be ye also ready: for IN AN HOUR THAT YE THINK NOT THE SON OF MAN COMETH. 41 And Peter said, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even unto all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is the faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall set over his household, to give them their portion of food in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, WHOM HIS LORD WHEN HE COMETH SHALL FIND SO DOING. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that HE WILL SET HIM OVER ALL THAT HE HATH. 45 But if that servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and the maidservants, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 THE LORD OF THAT SERVANT SHALL COME IN A DAY WHEN HE EXPECTETH NOT, AND IN AN HOUR WHEN HE KNOWETH NOT, AND SHALL CUT HIM ASUNDER, and appoint his portion with the unfaithful.

    (ASV) John 10:7 Jesus therefore said unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All that came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door; by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and go out, and shall find pasture. 10 THE THIEF COMETH NOT, BUT THAT HE MAY STEAL, AND KILL, AND DESTROY: I came that they may have life, and may have [it] abundantly. 11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd layeth down his life for the sheep.

    (ASV) Acts 2:20 THE SUN SHALL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS, AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD, BEFORE THE DAY OF THE LORD COME, That great and notable [day].

    (ASV) 1 Corinthians 1:4 I thank my God always concerning you, for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus; 5 that in everything ye were enriched in him, in all utterance and all knowledge; 6 even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: 7 so that ye come behind in no gift; WAITING FOR THE REVELATION OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST; 8 WHO SHALL ALSO CONFIRM YOU UNTO THE END, [THAT YE BE] UNREPROVEABLE IN THE DAY OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST. 9 God is faithful, through whom ye were called into the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

    (ASV) 1 Corinthians 5:1 It is actually reported that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not even among the Gentiles, that one [of you] hath his father's wife. 2 And ye are puffed up, and did not rather mourn, that he that had done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I verily, being absent in body but present in spirit, have already as though I were present judged him that hath so wrought this thing, 4 in the name of our Lord Jesus, ye being gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, THAT THE SPIRIT MAY BE SAVED IN THE DAY OF THE LORD JESUS. 6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

    (ASV) 1 Corinthians 15:19 If we have only hoped in Christ in this life, we are of all men most pitiable. 20 But now hath Christ been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of them that are asleep. 21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also IN CHRIST SHALL ALL BE MADE ALIVE. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ's, AT HIS COMING. ... 50 Now this I say, brethren, that FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD; NEITHER DOTH CORRUPTION INHERIT INCORRUPTION. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: WE ALL SHALL NOT SLEEP, BUT WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, AND THE DEAD SHALL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, AND WE SHALL BE CHANGED. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But WHEN THIS CORRUPTIBLE SHALL HAVE PUT ON INCORRUPTION, AND THIS MORTAL SHALL HAVE PUT ON IMMORTALITY, THEN SHALL COME TO PASS THE SAYING THAT IS WRITTEN, DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY.

    (ASV) 2 Corinthians 1:13 For we write no other things unto you, than what ye read or even acknowledge, and I hope ye will acknowledge UNTO THE END: 14 as also ye did acknowledge us in part, that we are your glorying, even as ye also are ours, IN THE DAY OF OUR LORD JESUS.

    (ASV) 2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if the earthly house of our tabernacle be dissolved, WE HAVE A BUILDING FROM GOD, A HOUSE NOT MADE WITH HANDS, ETERNAL, IN THE HEAVENS. 2 For verily in this we groan, longing TO BE CLOTHED UPON WITH OUR HABITATION WHICH IS FROM HEAVEN ... 4 ... THAT WHAT IS MORTAL MAY BE SWALLOWED UP OF LIFE. 5 Now he that wrought us for this very thing is God, who gave unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Being therefore always of good courage, and knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord 7 (for we walk by faith, not by sight); 8 we are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord. 9 Wherefore also we make it our aim, whether at home or absent, to be well-pleasing unto him. 10 For we must all be made manifest before the judgment-seat of Christ; that each one may receive the things [done] in the body, according to what he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.

    (ASV) Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD, IN WHOM YE WERE SEALED UNTO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION.

    (ASV) Philippians 1:3 I thank my God upon all my remembrance of you, 4 always in every supplication of mine on behalf of you all making my supplication with joy, 5 for your fellowship in furtherance of the gospel from the first day until now; 6 being confident of this very thing, THAT HE WHO BEGAN A GOOD WORK IN YOU WILL PERFECT IT UNTIL THE DAY OF JESUS CHRIST: 7 even as it is right for me to be thus minded on behalf of you all, because I have you in my heart, inasmuch as, both in my bonds and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers with me of grace. 8 For God is my witness, how I long after you all in the tender mercies of Christ Jesus. 9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and all discernment; 10 so that ye may approve the things that are excellent; THAT YE MAY BE SINCERE AND VOID OF OFFENCE UNTO THE DAY OF CHRIST; 11 being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are through Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

    (ASV) Philippians 2:14 Do all things without murmurings and questionings: 15 that ye may become blameless and harmless, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom ye are seen as lights in the world, 16 holding forth the word of life; THAT I MAY HAVE WHEREOF TO GLORY IN THE DAY OF CHRIST, that I did not run in vain neither labor in vain.

    (ASV) Philippians 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven; whence also WE WAIT FOR A SAVIOUR, THE LORD JESUS CHRIST: 21 WHO SHALL FASHION ANEW THE BODY OF OUR HUMILIATION, [THAT IT MAY BE] CONFORMED TO THE BODY OF HIS GLORY, according to the working whereby he is able even to subject all things unto himself.

    (ASV) 1 Thessalonians 3:11 Now may our God and Father himself, and our Lord Jesus, direct our way unto you: 12 and the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we also [do] toward you; 13 TO THE END HE MAY ESTABLISH YOUR HEARTS UNBLAMEABLE IN HOLINESS BEFORE OUR GOD AND FATHER, AT THE COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS WITH ALL HIS SAINTS.

    (ASV) 1 Thessalonians 4:13 But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, CONCERNING THEM THAT FALL ASLEEP; THAT YE SORROW NOT, EVEN AS THE REST, WHO HAVE NO HOPE. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so THEM ALSO THAT ARE FALLEN ASLEEP IN JESUS WILL GOD BRING WITH HIM. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto THE COMING OF THE LORD, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP OF GOD: and THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST; 17 then WE THAT ARE ALIVE, THAT ARE LEFT, SHALL TOGETHER WITH THEM be caught up IN THE CLOUDS, TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore COMFORT ONE ANOTHER WITH THESE WORDS. 5:1 But CONCERNING THE TIMES AND THE SEASONS, brethren, YE HAVE NO NEED THAT AUGHT BE WRITTEN UNTO YOU. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that THE DAY OF THE LORD SO COMETH AS A THIEF IN THE NIGHT. 3 When they are saying, Peace and safety, then SUDDEN DESTRUCTION COMETH UPON THEM, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall in no wise escape. 4 But YE, BRETHREN, ARE NOT IN DARKNESS, THAT THAT DAY SHOULD OVERTAKE YOU AS A THIEF: 5 for ye are all sons of light, and sons of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness; 6 so then let us not sleep, as do the rest, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For they that sleep sleep in the night: and they that are drunken are drunken in the night. 8 But let us, since we are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for a helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For GOD APPOINTED US NOT INTO WRATH, BUT UNTO THE OBTAINING OF SALVATION THROUGH OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, 10 who died for us, that, WHETHER WE WAKE OR SLEEP, WE SHOULD LIVE TOGETHER WITH HIM.

    (ASV) 2 Thessalonians 1:3 We are bound to give thanks to God always to you, brethren, even as it is meet, for that your faith growth exceedingly, and the love of each one of you all toward one another aboundeth; 4 so that WE OURSELVES GLORY IN YOU IN THE CHURCHES OF GOD FOR YOUR PATIENCE AND FAITH IN ALL YOUR PERSECUTIONS AND IN THE AFFLICTIONS WHICH YE ENDURE; 5 [which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God; to the end THAT YE MAY BE COUNTED WORTHY OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD, FOR WHICH YE ALSO SUFFER: 6 if so be that it is righteous thing with God TO RECOMPENSE AFFLICTION TO THEM THAT AFFLICT YOU, 7 AND TO YOU THAT ARE AFFLICTED REST WITH US, AT THE REVELATION OF THE LORD JESUS FROM HEAVEN WITH THE ANGELS OF HIS POWER in flaming fire, 8 RENDERING VENGEANCE TO THEM THAT KNOW NOT GOD, and to them that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus: 9 who shall suffer punishment, [even] eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might, 10 WHEN HE SHALL COME TO BE GLORIFIED IN HIS SAINTS, and to be marvelled at in all them that believed (because our testimony unto you was believed) IN THAT DAY.

    (ASV) 2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, touching THE COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, AND OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM; 2 to the end that ye BE NOT QUICKLY SHAKEN FROM YOUR MIND, NOR YET BE TROUBLED, EITHER BY SPIRIT, OR BY WORD, OR BY EPISTLE AS FROM US, AS THAT THE DAY OF THE LORD (h hmera tou kuriou – WH Greek text) / THE DAY OF CHRIST (h hmera tou cristou – TR Greek text) IS JUST AT HAND; 3 let no man beguile you in any wise: for [it will not be,] EXCEPT THE FALLING AWAY COME FIRST, AND THE MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED, the son of perdition, 4 he that opposeth and exalteth himself against all that is called God or that is worshipped; so that he sitteth in the temple of God, setting himself forth as God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I TOLD YOU THESE THINGS? 6 And now ye know that which restraineth, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only [there is] one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall be revealed the lawless one, WHOM THE LORD JESUS SHALL SLAY WITH THE BREATH OF HIS MOUTH, AND BRING TO NOUGHT BY THE MANIFESTATION OF HIS COMING; 9 [even he], whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 and with all deceit of unrighteousness for them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

    (ASV) 2 Peter 3:9 THE LORD IS NOT SLACK CONCERNING HIS PROMISE, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But THE DAY OF THE LORD WILL COME AS A THIEF; IN THE WHICH THE HEAVENS SHALL PASS AWAY WITH A GREAT NOISE, AND THE ELEMENTS SHALL BE DISSOLVED WITH FERVENT HEAT, AND THE EARTH AND THE WORKS THAT ARE THEREIN SHALL BE BURNED UP. 11 Seeing that these things are thus all to be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in [all] holy living and godliness, 12 LOOKING FOR AND EARNESTLY DESIRING THE COMING OF THE DAY OF GOD, BY REASON OF WHICH THE HEAVENS BEING ON FIRE SHALL BE DISSOLVED, AND THE ELEMENTS SHALL MELT WITH FERVENT HEAT? 13 But, ACCORDING TO HIS PROMISE, WE LOOK FOR NEW HEAVENS AND A NEW EARTH, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for these things, GIVE DILIGENCE THAT YE MAY BE FOUND IN PEACE, WITHOUT SPOT AND BLAMELESS IN HIS SIGHT. 15 And account that THE LONGSUFFERING OF OUR LORD IS SALVATION; EVEN AS OUR BELOVED BROTHER PAUL ALSO, ACCORDING TO THE WISDOM GIVEN TO HIM, WROTE UNTO YOU; 16 as also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; wherein are some things hard to be understood, which the ignorant and unstedfast wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

    (ASV) 1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we children of God, and it is not yet made manifest what we shall be. We know that, IF HE SHALL BE MANIFESTED, WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM; FOR WE SHALL SEE HIM EVEN AS HE IS.

    (ASV) Revelation 3:2 Be thou watchful, and establish the things that remain, which were ready to die: for I have found no works of thine perfected before my God. 3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and didst hear; and keep [it], and repent. IF THEREFORE THOU SHALT NOT WATCH, I WILL COME AS A THIEF, AND THOU SHALT NOT KNOW WHAT HOUR I WILL COME UPON THEE.

    (ASV) Revelation 16:13 And I saw [coming] out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits, as it were frogs: 14 for they are spirits of demons, working signs; which GO FORTH UNTO THE KINGS OF THE WHOLE WORLD, TO GATHER THEM TOGETHER UNTO THE WAR OF THE GREAT DAY OF GOD, the Almighty. 15 (Behold, I COME AS A THIEF. BLESSED IS HE THAT WATCHETH, and keepeth his garments, lest he walked naked, and they see his shame.) 16 And THEY GATHERED THEM TOGETHER INTO THE PLACE WHICH IS CALLED IN HEBREW HAR-MAGEDON.

    (ASV) Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns that thou sawest are ten kings, who have received no kingdom as yet; but they receive authority as kings, with the beast, for one hour. 13 These have one mind, and they give their power and authority unto the beast. 14 THESE SHALL WAR AGAINST THE LAMB, AND THE LAMB SHALL OVERCOME THEM, FOR HE IS LORD OF LORDS, AND KING OF KINGS; AND THEY [ALSO SHALL OVERCOME] THAT ARE WITH HIM, CALLED AND CHOSEN AND FAITHFUL.

    (ASV) Revelation 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunders, saying, Hallelujah: for the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigneth. 7 Let us rejoice and be exceeding glad, and let us give the glory unto him: for THE MARRIAGE OF THE LAMB IS COME, AND HIS WIFE HATH MADE HERSELF READY. 8 And it was given unto her THAT SHE SHOULD ARRAY HERSELF IN FINE LINEN, BRIGHT [AND] PURE: FOR THE FINE LINEN IS THE RIGHTEOUS ACTS OF THE SAINTS. 9 And he saith unto me, Write, BLESSED ARE THEY THAT ARE BIDDEN TO THE MARRIAGE SUPPER OF THE LAMB. And he saith unto me, These are true words of God. ... 11 And I saw the heaven opened; and behold, a white horse, and HE THAT SAT THEREON CALLED FAITHFUL AND TRUE; AND IN RIGHTEOUS HE DOTH JUDGE AND MAKE WAR. ... 14 And THE ARMIES WHICH ARE IN HEAVEN FOLLOWED HIM UPON WHITE HORSES, CLOTHED IN FINE LINEN, WHITE [AND] PURE. 15 And out of his mouth proceedeth a sharp sword, that with it HE SHOULD SMITE THE NATIONS: AND HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of God, the Almighty. 16 And he hath on his garment and on his thigh a name written, KINGS OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. ... 19 And I saw THE BEAST, AND THE KINGS OF THE EARTH, AND THEIR ARMIES, GATHERED TOGETHER TO MAKE WAR AGAINST HIM THAT SAT UPON THE HORSE, AND AGAINST HIS ARMY.


    Jim
     
  13. prophecynut

    prophecynut
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    1jim

    Was not aware of 2 Tim. 2:18 and the false teachings on the resurrection, I now have it underlined.

    I don't care to comment on your lengthy post except for 2 Thess. 2:2. The context of this passage is the Antichrist and judgments during the Tribulation which is the day of the Lord, the same context as in Paul's first letter (5:2). Considering the context is about that day and not the day of Christ, the Textus Receptus is in error and the Westcott-Hort has it right.

    The day of Christ and day of the Lord are not the same, the Church and its heavenly promises are always associated with the Day of Christ, search "day of Christ" to confirm. This phrase never appears in the OT, Gospels or Revelation, only in Paul's instructions to the Church, Acts 2 - Rev. 3:3.

    Never are God's judgments in Mt. 24 and Revelation associated with the Church. Never is the day of the Lord associated with the Church, only those on earth during the Tribulation and blessings for those living in the Millennium.
     
  14. 1jim

    1jim
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    Hi prophecynut,


    prophecynut:

    The context of [2 Thessalonians 2:2] is the Antichrist and judgments during the Tribulation which is the day of the Lord, the same context as in Paul's first letter (5:2).


    Jim:

    If you reread all those many Biblical quotations that I included in my previous message, you’ll see that they all have one thing in common: they describe a single future coming of the Lord which will be experienced two different ways, depending on one’s relationship with God, either as a thief (destruction and wrath) or as salvation. All of those passages describe what happens at the coming of the Lord. Believers are to maintain faith and remain alert, and God continues to perfect them, until the coming of the Lord / the Day of Christ / the Day of the Lord, which will bring destruction to the wicked (as a thief), to those who afflict the saints, and salvation to those who are afflicted (the saints). The same coming that sets believers over all that Christ has also cuts asunder unbelievers: one coming of the Lord, two different experiences.

    The Day of the Lord in 1 Thessalonians 5:2 IS what is described in verses 4:13-18. The Day of the Lord in 2 Thessalonians 2:2 IS what is described in verse 2:1. This IS the Day of Christ. As Paul says in Philippians 1:6, “... He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the Day of Jesus Christ,” and in verse 1:10, “that ye may be sincere and void of offence unto the Day of Christ.” The coming of the Lord at which believers are gathered together to Him is the same coming of the Lord at which the man of sin is destroyed (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). It brings wrath and destruction as a thief to unbelievers and salvation to believers (1 Thessalonians 5:1-10). As Paul says in 2 Thessalonians 1:6-7, “... it is righteous thing with God to recompense affliction to them that afflict you, and to you that are afflicted rest with us, at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with the angels of his power ....” Both the good things (to believers) and the bad things (to unbelievers) occur at the same event. In 2 Peter 3:10-14, Peter describes the destruction (as a thief) that occurs in the Day of the Lord, and he says that believers “look for these things” (verse 3:14).


    Jim
     
  15. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    \o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

    \o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

    2 Thessalonians 2:1 (KJV1873):
    Now we beseech you, brethren,
    by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
    and by our gathering together unto him,

    Two events mentioned here:
    1) the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
    2) our gathering together unto him

    Titus 2:13 (KJV1873):
    Looking for that blessed hope,
    and the glorious appearing of the great God
    and our Saviour Jesus Christ

    Two events mentioned here:
    1) blessed hope
    2) the glorious appearing of the great God
    and our Saviour Jesus Christ


    These two events are mentioned seperately
    throughout the Bible. The Rapture, which
    was a mystery in the O.T. is now mentioned
    in the N.T.

    Rapture Passages (the gathering, the blessed hope):

    Matthew 24:31-44 (in the Mount Olivet Discourse
    ---/mod/ and parallel passages in Mark 13 & Luke 21)
    John 14:1-3
    Romans 8:19
    1 Corinthians 1:7-8, 15:51-53, 16:22
    Philippians 3:20-21, 4:5
    Colossians 3:4
    1 Thessalonians 1:10, 2:19, 4:13-18, 5:9,23
    2 Thessalonians 1:7, 2:1, 2:3
    1 Timothy 6:14
    2 Timothy 4:1,8
    Hebrews 9:28
    1 Peter 1:7,13, 5:4
    1 John 2:28-3:2
    Jude 1:21
    Revelation 2:25

    Second Advent Passages
    (Jesus comes again in power and glory
    to defeat the antichrist and set up the
    millinnial kingdom):

    Daniel 2:44-45, 7:9-14, 12:1-3
    Zechariah 12:10, 14:1-15
    Matthew 13:41
    Matthew 24:15-30, 26:64
    Mark 13
    Luke 21
    Acts 1:9-11, 3:19-21
    1 Thessalonians 3:13
    2 Thessalonians 1:6-10, 2:8
    1 Peter 4:12-19
    2 Peter 3:1-14
    Jude 1:14-15
    Revelation 4-19



    ----------------------------------------------------------

    Comparing the rapture/resurrection (R) AKA: gathering
    with the Second Advent (SC): when Jesus comes
    to destroy the Antichrist and set up the
    Millennial Kingdom AKA: Glorious Appearance.

    1R. Jesus comes for His own ( given physical bodies)
    (John 14:3, 1 Thess 4:17)
    1SC. Jesus comes with His own (already have physical bodies) (Rev 19:14)

    2R. Jesus comes in the air (1 Thes 4:17)
    2SC. Jesus comes to the earth
    (Zech 14:4-5, Acts 1:11)

    3R. Jesus comes to claim His Bride
    (1 Thess 4:16-17)
    3SC. Jesus comes with His Bride
    (Rev 19:6-14)

    4R. end of the Gentile Age
    (Matthew 24:3, 24:31-44)
    4SC. end of the Tribulation Period
    (Revelation 19)

    5R. Tribulation period begins
    5SC. Millennial Kingdom begins

    6R. Saved are delivered from wrath
    (1 Thes 1:10, 5:9; Rev 3:10)
    6SC. Unsaved experience the wrath of God
    (Rev 6:12-17)

    7R. No Signs precede the Rapture
    (1 Thess. 5:1-3, Matthew 24:31-44)
    7SC. Signs precede the Second Coming
    (Luke 21-11-28, Matthew 24:21-30)

    8R. Focus: Lord and Church
    (1 Thess 4:13-18)
    8SC. Focus: Israel and kingdom
    (Romans 11)

    9R. World is deceived (2 Thess 2:3-12)
    9SC. Satan is bound (Rev 20:1-2)

    10R. No judgement mentioned on earth
    10SC. Follows the Tribulation period
    judgement and followed by the sheep/goats
    judgement.

    11R. Time of joy. (1Thessalonians 4:17-18)
    11SC. Time of sorrow. (Matthew 24:30)

    12R. relative peace and prosperity. (Lk.17:26-30).
    12SC. the worst war the world has ever seen. (Mt.24:21,22).

    13R. Christians are promised they will be delivered
    -- from the wrath to come
    13SC. Israeli are told to flee the wrath to come
     
  16. 1jim

    1jim
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    Hi Ed,


    Ed:

    2 Thessalonians 2:1 (KJV1873):

    Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

    TWO EVENTS mentioned here:
    1) THE COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST
    2) OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM


    Paul:

    (ASV) Matthew 24:30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see THE SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send forth his angels WITH A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and they shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    (ASV) Mark 13:26 And then shall they see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send forth the angels, and shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

    (ASV) 1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also IN CHRIST SHALL ALL BE MADE ALIVE. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then THEY THAT ARE CHRIST'S, AT HIS COMING. ... 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: for THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, AND THE DEAD SHALL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, AND WE SHALL BE CHANGED.

    (ASV) 1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto THE COMING OF THE LORD, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and WITH THE TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; 17 then we that are alive, that are left, SHALL TOGETHER WITH THEM BE CAUGHT UP IN THE CLOUDS, TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    (ASV) 2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, touching THE COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, and OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM; 2 to the end that ye be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by epistle as from us, as that THE DAY OF THE LORD is just at hand; 3 let no man beguile you in any wise: for [it will not be,] EXCEPT THE FALLING AWAY COME FIRST, AND THE MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED, the son of perdition ... 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? ... 8 ... WHOM THE LORD JESUS SHALL SLAY with the breath of his mouth, AND BRING TO NOUGHT BY THE MANIFESTATION OF HIS COMING;


    Jim:

    According to your logic, each of these passages, including 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, describes not two aspects of one event but two different events. I think you’re mistaken.


    Paul:

    (ASV) Acts 23:6 ... touching the hope and resurrection of the dead ...

    (ASV) Hebrews 6:4 ... touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit ...


    Jim:

    According to your logic, Acts 23:6 does not refer to the same thing but to two different things, and Hebrews 6:4 does not refer to the same people but to three different groups of people. I think you’re mistaken.


    Ed:

    Titus 2:13 (KJV1873):

    Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ

    Two events mentioned here:
    1) blessed hope
    2) the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ


    Jim:

    Some might argue Sharp’s rule here ...

    Titus 2:13 prosdecomenoi THN makarian elpida KAI epifaneian thV doxhV (looking for THE blessed hope AND appearing that is glorious) TOU megalou qeou KAI swthroV hmwn cristou ihsou (of THE great God AND Savior of us, Jesus Christ)

    ... even though Sharp’s rule applies without any exceptions only to multiple references to the same person, as in the second half of the above verse, as opposed to multiple references to the same thing, as in the first half of the above verse, the rule being that when multiple nouns joined by the conjunction “kai” (and) follow a single article (such as “TOU” [the] in the second half of the above example), they all refer to the same person.

    In 1 Peter 1:13, Peter says, “set your HOPE perfectly on the grace that is to be brought unto you at THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST.” I think that this is consistent with Paul’s reference to THE blessed hope AND appearing of Christ as being a reference not to two different things but to the same thing, all believers looking for and expecting this one thing, as opposed to two different things, the appearing of Christ being our hope.


    Jim
     
  17. prophecynut

    prophecynut
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    No way Jose.
    4:13-18 is the Rapture, do you see any judgment or wrath in this passage? 5:2 is the day of the Lord that follows the Rapture, see the "destruction" and "labor pains" typical of the day of the Lord. The Church is never associated with destruction, labor pains or earthly judgments.

    I challenge you locate Scripture between Acts 2 and Revelation 3 any reference to the Church experiencing destruction, labor pains or earthly judgments as those given in Mt. 24 and Rev. 6-19.


    Before Armageddon begins the man of sin is captured and destroyed (Rev. 19:18-20). After Armageddon Jesus returns to Mount of Olives where he ascended (Acts 1:10-11), when his feet touch the ground a massive earthquake happens (Zec. 14:4) and the mountains collapse and islands sink beneath the sea (Rev. 16:20). The man of sin is destroyed before the Second Coming.

    This occurs at the end of the Millennium when the earth is renovated by fire and the New heavens and new earth begin the eternal state. Believer look forward to dwelling eternally with God, not the destruction before it.


    Again, locate Scripture involving the Church with destruction, judgment or labor pains of the Tribulation.
     
  18. 1jim

    1jim
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    Hi prophecynut,


    prophecynut:

    I challenge you locate Scripture between Acts 2 and Revelation 3 any reference to the Church experiencing destruction, labor pains or earthly judgments as those given in Mt. 24 and Rev. 6-19.


    Jim:

    Why do you limit the source material to Acts 2 through Revelation 3? Is it so that you can control the result? Do you regard Acts 2 through Revelation 3 as “Church-age” material? Do you think that the Church is not mentioned or described anywhere else in the New Testament? Do you believe that the Lamb’s Wife in Revelation 19:7 is not the Church? And when Jesus says in John 6:40 that everyone who believes in Him has eternal life, and that He will raise him at the last day, do you believe that this is not a reference to members of the Church?

    Likewise, do you believe that the saints in Revelation 13:7, where the beast is said to overcome the saints, are not members of the Church? Do you believe that those who are put to death for refusing to worship the beast in Revelation 13:15 are not members of the Church? Do you believe that those who will have been behead for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus, who will not have worshipped the beast or received his mark, who will live and reign with Christ a thousand years, as stated in Revelation 20:4, are not members of the Church? That would mean that Jesus’ promise in Revelation 2:26-27 to those who overcome that they would be given authority over the nations when Jesus rules the nations with a rod of iron was not given to members of the Church. Is that what you believe?

    Likewise, when Jesus says in Matthew 24, “Then shall they deliver YOU up unto tribulation, and shall kill YOU: and YE shall be hated of all the nations FOR MY NAME'S SAKE. ... When therefore YE see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place ... then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved: but FOR THE ELECT'S SAKE those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto YOU, Lo, here is the Christ, or, Here; believe [it] not. ... Behold, I have told YOU beforehand. If therefore they shall say unto YOU, Behold, he is in the wilderness; go not forth: Behold, he is in the inner chambers; believe [it] not. For as the lightning cometh forth from the east, and is seen even unto the west; so shall be the coming of the Son of man. ... But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see THE SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send forth his angels WITH A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and they shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other,” do you believe that the referent of “YOU” and “ELECT” is not members of the Church?

    Likewise, do you believe that “the Son of man coming on the clouds” in Matthew 24:30 and the sounding of “a trumpet” and the “gathering together of the elect” in Matthew 24:31 is not “the coming of the Lord” in 1 Thessalonians 4:15 or the sounding of “the trumpet” in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 or the “catching up together” of the saints in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, who are the “election” (1 Thessalonians 1:4), or that it is not “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ” or “our gathering together to Him” in 2 Thessalonians 2:1, and that “His coming” in 2 Thessalonians 2:8 is not “the coming of the Lord” in 1 Thessalonians 4:15?

    I think that the text of the New Testament is clear in its teaching that a single future coming of the Lord will be experience two different ways by believers and unbelievers. I think that you are forcing the text to mean what you prefer it to mean.


    Jim
     
  19. 1jim

    1jim
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    Hi prophecynut,


    Jim (previous message):

    In 2 Peter 3:10-14, Peter describes the destruction (as a thief) that occurs in the Day of the Lord, and he says that believers “look for these things” (verse 3:14).


    prophecynut (in response):

    This occurs at the end of the Millennium when the earth is renovated by fire and the New heavens and new earth begin the eternal state. Believers look forward to dwelling eternally with God, not the destruction before it.


    Jim (this message):

    The subject in 2 Peter 3 is the coming of the Lord. His coming initiates the Day of the Lord. That Day comes (begins) as a thief (in destruction). Jesus will come as a thief (Revelation 3:3 and 16:15). His coming will initiate the Day of the Lord, which will come as a thief (1 Thessalonians 5:2 and 2 Peter 3:10), bringing “destruction” (1 Thessalonians 5:2-3). This is how unbelievers will experience the coming of the Lord. This is certainly consistent with what occurs in Revelation 19. In contrast, believers will experience this same coming of the Lord not as destruction but as “salvation,” as described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 5:4-10. Peter says that the destruction of the present heaven and earth will occur in the Day of the Lord, and that a new heaven and earth will replace the old, which is consistent with Revelation 21:1. This indicates to me that the Day of the Lord (2 Peter 3:3-15 and Revelation 19:11 – 21:1) is a thousand years long. As Peter says in 2 Peter 3:8, a thousand years is the same as a day to the Lord. Given that the “hour” of “resurrection” in John 5:28-29, both the resurrection of life and the resurrection of judgment, is “a thousand years” long according to Revelation 20:4-5, I have no problem with the idea that “the Day of the Lord” is a thousand years long. It begins with the coming of the Lord (Revelation 19:11), which brings destruction (as a thief) to unbelievers (Revelation 19:15-21), and it concludes with the creation of a new heaven and earth (Revelation 21:1). The Day of Christ IS the Day of the Lord, because both begin with the coming of the Lord, and there’s only one future coming of the Lord. Christ reigns on earth with His saints throughout this Day of Christ / Day of the Lord, which is a thousand years long.


    Jim
     
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    Jesus said that he was going away to heaven to prepare a place for us in His Father's house. He said He would come again and RECEIVE US (up) to Himself.

    So we expect Him to return at the second coming (one time) as He says in John 14 AND we expect that return to happen as is described in 1Thess 4 and in Rev 19. At ONE time. Rapturing us UP to Him and taking us to heaven.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     

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