3 Books

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by NateT, Jul 23, 2004.

  1. NateT

    NateT
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    Currently, I am probably a 4 - 4.5 point calvinist, the last remaining issue to me would be the limited atonement (big surprise right?)

    What I would like is, from both sides, those for and those against, to give me 3 resources (web pages, books, etc) that you think I should read to persuade me that your point is correct. I'm not set on being a 5 point calvinist, but if the evidence goes that way, then I want to be there [​IMG]

    So give it your best shot. I can't say I'll read all of them but would like to get a feel for what's the best arguments on both sides.

    Thanks
     
  2. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    The Greek scholar Dr. Kenneth S. Wuest said in his "In These Last Days" Wm. B. Eerdman's Publishing, said on his commentary on I John, page 110-111,

    'Our Lord on the Cross assumed that guilt and paid the penalty in His own blood, and thus removed the cause of alienation. Now a holy and righteous God can bestow mercy upon a believing sinner on the basis of justice satisfied.' Bengel said, 'If men do not experience its benefit, the fault is not in its efficacy. Dusterdieck (cited by Huther) says, 'The propitiation has its real efficacy for the whole world; to believers it brings life, to unbelievers, death.'' Martin Luther said, 'It is a fact that thou art a part of the whole world; so that thine heart cannot deceive itself, and think, the Lord died for Peter, and Paul, but not for me.'

    Second Book: Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer, "Systematic Theology" Volume II, p. 327.

    'In I John 2:2 we read: 'And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.' No consideration can be given here to the interpretation of this passage which is offered by the advocates of a limited-redemption theory. Without question, the passage sets up a vital contrast between "our sins," which could not refer to those in the mass of unregenerate human beings, and "the sins of the whole [cosmos] world," which classification as certainly includes more than the sins of the regenerate portion of humanity, unless language is strained beyond measure in the interests of a theory.'

    Third Book: "Word Pictures In The New Testament" written by the Greek scholar, Dr. A.T. Robertson, and at one time professor of N.T. Interpretation at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary said, in volume VI, p. 209-210,

    ' . . . in Hebrews 7:27, but a simpler way is just to regard "the whole world" as a mass of sin (I John 5:19). At any rate, the propitiation by Christ provides for salvation for all {Hebrews 2:9} if they will only be reconciled with God. (II Cor. 5:19-21).

    Fourth Book: "What Love Is This?" written by Dave Hunt says on page 115:

    ' . . . not showing mercy at all could be explained as resulting from justice; but not showing mercy to all when all are equally guilty is a perversion of justice. Mercy can only be shown to the guilty on a righteous basis; and if not, then justice has been perverted. This fact poses a serious problem for Calvinism which John Piper in his major attempt to justify Calvinism's God fails to consider in its entire 220 pages.'

    Dr. Paul Enns, "The Moody Handbook of Theology, Moody Press, p. 498.

    'Arminians teach that the atonement of Christ was universal. "This does not mean that all mankind will be unconditionally saved, but that the sacrificial offering of Christ so far satisfied the claims of the Divine law as to make salvation possible for all . . . . The Scriptures emphasize universal provision {John 3:16-17; Romans 5:8, 18; II Cor. 5:14-15; I Timothy 2:4; 4:10; Heb. 2:9; 10:29; II Peter 2:1; I John 2:2; 4:14}.

    Since Christ made provision for all, the proclamation of the Gospel is to all (Matt. 28:19; Mark 16:15; Luke 24:47).

    If you need more books; let me know.

    As a sidebar, the only doctrine that comes close to the truth of Calvinism is the Perseverence of the Saints, which is similar in some ways to eternal security. In other ways Perseverence is different from that of the eternal security of the believer who is in Christ. Eternal security is Biblical; the other four points of Calvinism sits in the lap of man made error.

    Regards,
    Berrian, Th.D.
     
  3. Primitive Baptist

    Primitive Baptist
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    Ray Berrian,

    It makes no sense to say that since all are equally guilty, God is obligated to show mercy to all without exception. "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."
     
  4. Ray Berrian

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    You have been taught and learned incorrectly if you think that Romans chapter nine is dealing with either saving or damning all of His created beings, namely humans.

    Romans nine, does, however, point to His providential Leadership and rule in His world. Yes, Pharaoh probably died and went to Hell. Yes, Moses will be in Heaven when we arrive there. Hebrews 11:20 lists both Jacob and Esau among the patriarchs and saints, though they both did evil things. It is true that Rebecca and Isaac were woven into His Divine plan for the ages. Hosea, the prophet is mentioned in verse twenty-five. Isaiah is also the third prophet if you include Moses among them.

    Verse thirty-three points to men and women as masters of their own destiny. 'Behold, I lay in Zion a stumblingstone, a rock of offence; and whosoever believes in Him will never be ashamed.'

    Pharaoh hardened his own heart and damned his own soul; but beyond this fact, the Lord used him as a pagan sinner, ' that He might show His power in Pharaoh, and that His Name might be declared throughout all the earth.' [Romans 9:17]

    The Bible does not portray a vindictive, biased, prejudice, or bigoted Lord who, at will, damns the majority of human beings, while saving His favored ones. He is 'longsuffering' patient, untiring and vigilent [vs. 22] toward all sinners, {even} those who are to become 'the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.'

    Christ's love, mercy and Divine justice goes out to all lost souls; and these attributes of God will never be compromised or repressed. Praise be to God. Jesus is the everlasting Rock to all who believingly trust in Him. [Romans 9:33]

    No other portion of Scripture including Roman nine corroberates the idea that God is selecting men and women for Heaven and Hell.
     
  5. NateT

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    Can we stay on topic please? If you want to debate the merits of these sources, start a new thread. I'm only interested in what people on both sides consider the strongest arguments, so that I can research them.

    Thanks
     
  6. Stratiotes

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  7. panicbird

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    Nate,

    The Death of Death in the Death of Christ by John Owen. This is the definitive work on limited atonement. From what I understand, it has yet to be answered. I am certain that Southern's library has it. Read Packer's introduction as well; it is excellent. It can be found here: http://www.all-of-grace.org/pub/others/deathofdeath.html

    Lon
     
  8. NateT

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    Just a note, I took a look at some of the links provided, and on one was Owen's death of death book with Packer's intro.

    Also, Lon, I checked and Southern has a copy from 1959, but in their archives they have one from 1792.
     
  9. Stratiotes

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    It is very hard to go wrong with John Owen. If I was down to just one author aside from scripture, it would have to be Dr. Owen. I wish I had thought of mentioning that one ;)
     
  10. Ray Berrian

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    John Owen by his teaching helped to destroy God's perfect plan of salvation for every sinner. [Romans 3:23; I Timothy 2:9; I John 2:2] And the same is true of Dr. James I. Packer. These men have poured on Jesus atonement their own views of what John Calvin thought was right. This view cripples, mutilates and hides the truth of the precious blood of our Lord, as to the far reaching effect of His redemption.

    The Lord's atonement is sufficient for all sinner, but is only efficient in the elect. The elect ones are all who receive Christ as Savior. [John 1:12]
     
  11. BrotherJoe

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    Brother Ray,

    YOU QUOTED A BOOK FROM Dr. Wuest that states, "'Our Lord on the Cross assumed that guilt and paid the penalty in His own blood, and thus removed the cause of alienation"

    If our Lord did in fact do this for every single human being that ever lived, then wouldnt that mean there will be people in Hell who Christ on the cross "assumed that guilt and paid the penalty" for....hmmm people in Hell whose penalty has been paid and guilt taken, this seems contradictory, doesnt it?

    Christ died for a paticular people on the cross and that people alone, to conclude otherwise produces contradictions similar to the one I just exposed.

    Brother Joe
     
  12. Monergist

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    ...So we have only half a savior? :( :(
     
  13. Monergist

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    I would add John Murray's Redemption Accomplished and Applied to the others already mentioned.
     
  14. Ray Berrian

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    Brother Joe,

    You gentlemen have not factored into His plan, the requirement of believing and or trusting in Jesus Christ in what He accomplished at the Cross. Our Lord will only save those who believe in Him. This is clear as crystal in John 3:18.

    Jesus is a perfect Savior to those who truly believe in His work accomplished on the Cross of Calvary. [Hebrews 9:28; Hebrews 13:5; 13:20-21]

    The Lord does not mysteriously snatch people into the kingdom and or His church. He is not a pick and choose Machine.

    Regards,
    Berrian
     
  15. Tumbleweed

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    Nate -
    The truth is that Arminians and Calvinists both limit the atonement of Christ. The latter see an absolutetly effective atonement made for a limited number of people, while the former see an atonement made for all humanity, but limited in it's effectiveness. You must decide which is actually depicted in the word of God.

    From a logical point of view, a universal atonement means -
    1) In time, Christ atoned for the sins of those who were already in Hell before He went to the cross.
    2) If Christ atoned for the sins of the reprobate, His atonement was only potential, not real. If it were real, God would be unjust to condemn one whose account had been settled.
    3) It makes Christ half a Priest, because although He supposedly represented the reprobate on the cross, He does not presently represent them before the Father's throne.

    Owen's book is not a breezy read. As someone said, he "writes like a lumbering elephant," but when he's done with a subject, you get the distinct feeling there's nothing left to be said about it. Well worth the effort.

    Another worthwhile addition to the book pile is "Definite Atonement" by Gary D Long. My copy was published by P&R, and is now out of print, but if you can find a copy, I'll almost guarantee it will take care of that last half-a-point!

    BTW: Ray stated above that, "The Lord's atonement is sufficient for all sinners, but is only efficient in the elect." This is exactly what Calvinists have always taught. It is not the value of Christ's sacrifice (which is infinite) that is at question here. The question is rather, "For whom was it actually intended? - On whose behalf was this sacrifice actually made?" One of the many answers given is Matt.1:21 - "Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins."

    - Paul
     
  16. npetreley

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    In other words, the ones who are chosen are the ones who choose? Then why are they called the chosen (elect)? The should be called the choosers.
     
  17. pinoybaptist

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    Gosh ! Poor God !! Poor, poor God ! To think that He could speak things into existence, and, now, here are these miserable, dirty, rotten, sinners, who couldn't get inside their houses without passing thru a door, able to thwart his designs, to cripple, mutilate and hide His truths of the precious blood of Jesus Christ.

    Poor God !
     
  18. Monergist

    Monergist
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    Like I said, half-a-savior. More to be pitied than praised.
     
  19. Ray Berrian

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    Someone said, 'Like I said, half-a-savior. More to be pitied than praised.'

    Ray: God has predestined the free will of human sinners. Look to the third world nations and the Muslim nations and then tell me that the majority are in the kingdom. Sorry, you cannot blame the Lord God for their rejection of His only plan of salvation. There is no need to pity the Lord. His plan was perfect. [I John 2:2] The ones who are to be pitied are those who reject Christ. He is the perfect Savior who most souls reject.
     
  20. Tumbleweed

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    Nate -

    I realize you started this thread as a quest for books, but it's difficult to keep our thoughts to ourselves on a message board!

    One of the underlying differences we have with Arminians is that instead of viewing God's plan of salvation from God's point of view and in sympathy with Him, they see the whole thing from a sinner's perspective, and therefore make assumptions sympathetic to the interests of rebellious men. I have yet to hear or read an Arminian for whom the welfare of man did not take precedence over the glory of God.

    If however, if we allow scripture to discipline our thinking, we see that God looked upon the human race and saw that "There is none righteous; no, not one. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one." (These are the ones that the Arminian crowd would have us believe still have the capacity for loving and choosing God.)Astoundingly, it was from among this mass of condemned and hateful men that God determined to redeem a remnant unto Himself. Yet it is the very vileness and lostness of those He saves that will bring Him glory in eternity, for He saved them utterly. He did not help them save themselves, as in the Arminian/Catholic scheme of things.

    "God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name", and it was in pursuance of this He elected these people in eternity past, and sent His son to secure their salvation. In time, that salvation is applied the lives of His elect through the ministry of the Holy Spirit.

    If we then maintain this God-centred perspective, why would you (as one who has said you believe what the Bibles says about election) choose to reinterpret the scriptures to mean that Christ suffered for the convenience of condemned men whom God did not plan to redeem?

    Hopefully you can see that the so-called "4-point" position makes no sense once we move away from that perverse man-centred mindset which is natural to us all.

    - Paul
     

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