Featured 3 Differences between the Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ

Yes the apostles and early church fathers expected the SECOND COMING. But let's be honest the rapture as understood in America, is different from the second coming, and as I said I grow weary with people trying to tie current events in with the rapture coming despite Jesus making it clear that no one would know the day or the hour. Looking for the Second Coming has historical support and I'm not weary of that but looking for the Rapture is a modern invention that I am very weary of.

 

The reason they don't mention Darby is that they don't want to admit that pre-trib-dispensationalism is the invention of man and not a doctrine supported by Scripture!

 

You make some of the most ridiculous arguments.
I have been a Christian for over 40 years. The resurrection of Christ is foundational to the gospel and one cannot be saved without believing in it. An understanding of our resurrection came shortly after. I have always believed that "our resurrection," that is "the rapture" takes place before the tribulation.
In my early years as a Christian I did use a Scofield Bible, but my teaching came primarily from the church I attended, after I was baptized. Even after I graduated from Bible College I had never heard of Darby except perhaps in church history in connection with the Brethren. It is only until recently (recent years relatively speaking), that someone connected Darby to premillialism.

In this light the statements you make appear to me as the most foolish ever and just show your hatred toward a man. They are not a valid argument. They are a desperate argument that hold no weight. If you had anything at all to say you would say it from scripture. But you keep on the same ridiculous argument that carries no weight, not even a feather's worth. It is useless knowledge.

 

So you got your pre-trib-dispensational doctrine from Scofield who got it from Darby. I thought so! And you finally admit it. The Scofield Bible has been a bane to the Church since its publication and still is, as well as all the look alikes! Read a little history DHK about the start of Darby's doctrine. I have provided you an excellent link.

http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice-JohnNelsonDarbyandth.pdf

And for the Darby Scofield connection:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4531.htm

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I borrowed the following from TCassidy's Signature but it fits you perfectly, DHK!

I hope he doesn't mind. It is for a worthwhile cause!

 

Either you don't read well, or you tell lies. I just told you I didn't get my ideas from Scofield. Why did you say I did? Why lie?

 

Why should I believe you did not get your pre-trib doctrine from Scofield?

 

Why did it take 1800 years after the death of Jesus Christ for someone to come up with the concept of pre-trig-removal of the Church and that from reading Isaiah 32.

Where did you get your pre-trib-dispensational doctrine? Not from the Bible because it is not there regardless of what you, DHK, Darby, Scofield, Ryrie, Walvoord, Chafer, MacArthur, Margaret MacDonald or anyone else claims.

 

That's like me saying to you:
Why should I believe you are saved? Why should I believe anything you say is true?
If you can't trust my testimony then what is the point of the conversation?
I told you where I was taught. Read again.

 

DHK

On numerous occasions you have questioned my salvation. You are simply very subtile in how you do it. However, you being one of the ruling class on this BB, I have no doubt that you could call me an infidel and survive. Try it and prove me wrong for the first time!

 

You are wrong. Blatantly wrong. You are lying. You don't know what you are talking about. I give you my testimony. I tell you I was taught by my church.
You say NO, I was taught by Scofield Bible.

Now who is the liar. You don't know me, where I live, my background, education, etc. But you presume to know my background just like omniscient God. You have lied. Your presumptuous attitude knows no bounds.
You owe me an apology.

 

It seems to me that if someone says something about himself or herself, that as a Christian brother or sister, we should consider that person as having been truthful, unless we have good reason for believing otherwise. Don't we owe each other Christian charity?

 

At the time Jesus spoke this in the graves did hear his voice, Ephesians 4:8-10, 8 "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Jesus descended into the abode of hades, that is the Paradise abode, and from there we see Peter's writing, 1st Peter 3:19, 19 "By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;" while in Paradise He preached to all of those in Prison or torments.

Jesus himself taught the two abodes existed, Luke 16:22-26, "And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. "

Paul says Jesus descended first before He ascended, Peter says He preached to those in prison. Then Paul shows us where a change had taken place between the time Jesus taught of Paradise and His ascension, 2 corinthians 5:8 "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

So Jesus descended into Paradise, preached to the captives that is, those in the graves, then He carried those in Paradise into Heaven at some point or they are still there and He and the church believers are the only ones in heaven. When He returns for His church the believers of this age will be resurrected, at the end of the Tribulation that will complete the first resurrection. Once the 1000 years is up then and only then will the unbelieving dead be raised and cast into the lake of fire.

 

Matthew Henry 1st Thessaloninas commentary, "Those that shall be found alive will then be changed. They shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, 1 Thessalonians 4:17. At, or immediately before, this rapture into the clouds, those who are alive will undergo a mighty change, which will be equivalent to dying. This change is so mysterious that we cannot comprehend it: we know little or nothing of it, 1 Corinthians 15:51. Only, in the general, this mortal must put on immortality, and these bodies will be made fit to inherit the kingdom of God, which flesh and blood in its present state are not capable of. This change will be in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (1 Corinthians 15:52), in the very instant, or not long after the raising up of those that sleep in Jesus. And those who are raised, and thus changed, shall meet together in the clouds, and there meet with their Lord, to congratulate him on his coming, to receive the crown of glory he will then bestow upon them, and to be assessors with him in judgment, approving and applauding the sentence he will then pass upon the prince of the power of the air, and all the wicked, who shall be doomed to destruction with the devil and his angels." Seems Rev. Henry called it a rapture. He of course predated Darby. He goes further to state "Here is the bliss of the saints at that day: they shall be ever with the Lord, 1 Thessalonians 4:17. It will be some part of their felicity that all the saints shall meet together, and remain together for ever; but the principal happiness of heaven is this, to be with the Lord, to see him, live with him, and enjoy him, for ever. This should comfort the saints upon the death of their friends, that, although death has made a separation, yet their souls and bodies will meet again; we and they shall meet together again: we and they shall meet together again: we and they with all the saints shall meet our Lord, and be with him for ever, no more to be separated wither from him or from one another for ever. And the apostle would have us comfort one another with these words, 1 Thessalonians 4:18. We should endeavour to support one another in times of sorrow, not deaden one another's spirits, nor weaken one another's hands, but should comfort one another; and this may be done by serious consideration and discourse on the many good lessons to be learned from the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead, the second coming of Christ, and the glory of the saints in that day." Seems he believed a rapture of saints would take place. Before the Kingdom came!

Henry on Revelation 20: verses 4-6: "Here is an account of the reign of the saints, for the same space of time as Satan is bound. Those who suffer with Christ, shall reign with him in his spiritual and heavenly kingdom, in conformity to him in his wisdom, righteousness, and holiness: this is called the first resurrection, with which none but those who serve Christ, and suffer for him, shall be favoured. The happiness of these servants of God is declared. None can be blessed but those that are holy; and all that are holy shall be blessed. We know something thing of what the first death is, and it is very awful; but we know not what this second death is. It must be much more dreadful; it is the death of the soul, eternal separation from God. May we never know what it is: those who have been made partakers of a spiritual resurrection, are saved from the power of the second death. We may expect that a thousand years will follow the destruction of the antichristian, idolatrous, persecuting powers,during which pure Christianity, in doctrine, worship, and holiness, will be made known over all the earth. By the all-powerful working of the Holy Spirit, fallen man will be new-created; and faith and holiness will as certainly prevail, as unbelief and unholiness now do. We may easily perceive what a variety of dreadful pains, diseases, and other calamities would cease, if all men were true and consistent Christians. All the evils of public and private contests would be ended, and happiness of every kind largely increased. Every man would try to lighten suffering, instead of adding to the sorrows around him. It is our duty to pray for the promised glorious days, and to do every thing in our public and private stations which can prepare for them." appears Henry saw an earthly Kingdom with satan bound yet to come that would last 1000 years. Before Darby there was the belief of a rapture and a 100 year kingdom on earth.

 

You really need to read more about what Matthew Henry believed.

 

Matthew Henry complete commentary Revelation 4, "I. The preparation made for the apostle's having this vision.
1. A door was opened in heaven. Hence we learn, (1.) Whatever is transacted on earth is first designed and settled in heaven; there is the model of all the works of God; all of them are therefore before his eye, and he lets the inhabitants of heaven see as much of them as is fit for them. (2.) We can know nothing of future events but what God is pleased to discover to us; they are within the veil, till God opens the door. But, (3.) So far as God reveals his designs to us we may and ought to receive them, and not pretend to be wise above what is revealed.
2. To prepare John for the vision, a trumpet was sounded, and he was called up into heaven, to have a sight there of the things which were to be hereafter. He was called into the third heavens. (1.) There is a way opened into the holiest of all, into which the sons of God may enter by faith and holy affections now, in their spirits when they die, and in their whole persons at the last day. (2.) We must not intrude into the secret of God's presence, but stay till we are called up to it.
3. To prepare for this vision, the apostle was in the Spirit. He was in a rapture, as before (Revelation 1:10), whether in the body or out of the body we cannot tell; perhaps he himself could not; however all bodily actions and sensations were for a time suspended, and his spirit was possessed with the spirit of prophecy, and wholly under a divine influence. The more we abstract ourselves from all corporeal things the more fit we are for communion with God; the body is a veil, a cloud, and clog to the mind in its transactions with God. We should as it were forget it when we go in before the Lord in duty, and be willing to drop it, that we may go up to him in heaven. This was the apparatus to the vision. Now observe,
II. The vision itself. It begins with the strange sights that the apostle saw, and they were such as these: - 1. He saw a throne set in heaven, the seat of honour, and authority, and judgment. Heaven is the throne of God; there he resides in glory, and thence he gives laws to the church and to the whole world, and all earthly thrones are under the jurisdiction of this throne that is set in heaven. 2. He saw a glorious one upon the throne. This throne was not empty; there was one in it who filled it, and that was God, who is here described by those things that are most pleasant and precious in our world: His countenance was like a jasper and a sardine-stone; he is not described by any human features, so as to be represented by an image, but only by his transcendent brightness. This jasper is a transparent stone, which yet offers to the eye a variety of the most vivid colours, signifying the glorious perfections of God; the sardine-stone is red, signifying the justice of God, that essential attribute of which he never divests himself in favour of any, but gloriously exerts it in the government of the world, and especially of the church, through our Lord Jesus Christ. This attribute is displayed in pardoning as well as in punishing, in saving as well as in destroying sinners. 3. He saw a rainbow about the throne, like unto an emerald, Revelation 4:3. The rainbow was the seal and token of the covenant of the providence that God made with Noah and his posterity with him, and is a fit emblem of that covenant of promise that God has made with Christ as the head of the church, and all his people in him, which covenant is as the waters of Noah unto God, an everlasting covenant, ordered in all things and sure. This rainbow looked like the emerald; the most prevailing colour was a pleasant green, to show the reviving and refreshing nature of the new covenant. 4. He saw four-and-twenty seats round about the throne, not empty, but filled with four-and-twenty elders, presbyters, representing, very probably, the whole church of God, both in the Old Testament and in the New Testament state; not the ministers of the church, but rather the representatives of the people. Their sitting denotes their honour, rest, and satisfaction; their sitting about the throne signifies their relation to God, their nearness to him, the sight and enjoyment they have of him. They are clothed in white raiment, the righteousness of the saints, both imputed and inherent; they had on their heads crowns of gold, signifying the honour and authority given them of God, and the glory they have with him. All these may in a lower sense be applied to the gospel church on earth, in its worshipping assemblies; and, in the higher sense, to the church triumphant in heaven."

It appears the more I read of Henry the more he talked about a rapture and the church triumphant in heaven. No matter how much you want to say Darby first talked of the "Rapture" and "the church triumphant in Heaven" as being Darby it appears Henry years before Darby also saw a Rapture and the church triumphant in heaven represented by John and the 24 elders. Not sure what all Darby taught but Henry definite saw a church Rapture and the Church in Heaven before the 1000 year Kingdom and he saw that as yet to come and a literal Kingdom upon the earth. I believe Henry studied it and read from his predecessors. Seems the teaching pre-dates your enemy Darby.

 

Matthew Henry on Revelation 20. Note that the Church is still on earth during this period when Satan is bound.

 

In 2 Thess. 1: 5-11 Paul makes it clear that the churches expectation for Relief from the persecution of this world comes at the future Revelation (Second Advent) of our Lord. Relief at the Revelation. This passage alone refutes the pretrib rapture theory, IMO.

 

Let's see verse 3 Paul is talking to the Thessalonican believers who were suffering for their faith in the early church period. They were enduring trials and being persecuted that lasted until Constantine married the roman government and the church. The early church suffered for the sake of Christ. Verse 6 God will bring tribulation upon those who trouble the believer. Notice verse 7 those in the Tribulation are told to rest as we are at rest, that would tend to support the Church in heaven having been caught away, now wouldn't it! The Tribulation period of Revelation 6-19 deals with those who have rebelled against God, those who rejected Christ and there will during that time be a multitude saved who are being persecuted while the church is at rest. At the end of the Kingdom we see what will happen to all who don't believe in Christ, they will be cast into the Lake of Fire, verse 8 in flaming fire God takes vengeance upon those who persecuted believers of every age. When does that happen after the Kingdom and at the Great White throne judgment in other words after He has returned glorified and reigning with all the Saints.

A very beautiful passage to support the Pre-Trib view of things to come.