5 Things This Calvinist Believes

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Hardsheller, May 22, 2003.

  1. Hardsheller

    Hardsheller
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    5 Things This Calvinist Believes

    1. All men Can Freely Make Choices
    2. God does not force any person to do something that person doesn’t want to do.
    3. People are in Hell not because of God but because of their own unbelief.
    4. God is fair.
    5. Evangelism is Necessary.
     
  2. Rev. G

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    Ditto, all 5 points!
    [​IMG]

    A Fellow "Calvinist,"
    Rev. G
     
  3. Yelsew

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    Under the doctrine of election, why is evangelism necessary?
     
  4. ScottEmerson

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    Does God force upon man a change of will? That is, does man ask for God to change his will?

    If man has no say in God granting him a new will, is this not God "forcing" something upon man?
     
  5. Hardsheller

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    Does God force upon man a change of will? That is, does man ask for God to change his will?

    If man has no say in God granting him a new will, is this not God "forcing" something upon man?
    </font>[/QUOTE]No more than a person being born. I didn't ask to be born - did you? Somebody "forced" physical birth upon me. It was an act of physical love on the part of my parents that caused it.

    The same is true of the Spiritual Birth. Spiritual Birth is the effect of an act of love on the part of God.
     
  6. Hardsheller

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    Under the doctrine of election, why is evangelism necessary? </font>[/QUOTE]Because God has decreed in His Word that His Church is to spread the Gospel through Evangelism. Evangelism is the means that God has chosen to bring His chosen (elect) to Himself.
     
  7. Yelsew

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    Oh, I see. It is like setting a snare for bear but taking anything that happens to come along!
     
  8. Hardsheller

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    No, it's like obeying the Great Commission.
     
  9. Rev. G

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    Under the doctrine of "free will" why is prayer for salvation necessary?
     
  10. Rev. G

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    No, that would be Arminian evangelism.
     
  11. ScottEmerson

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    So you are agreeing that God does force this new birth, as you state that somebody "forces" physical birth on us. I didn't ask about love, I asked about force. Number 2 is therefore false. Perhaps you need to re-do that one.
     
  12. Hardsheller

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    So you are agreeing that God does force this new birth, as you state that somebody "forces" physical birth on us. I didn't ask about love, I asked about force. Number 2 is therefore false. Perhaps you need to re-do that one. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Sorry Scott, but I was merely parroting your line of thinking. You say God does not force any man to choose Him. I agree with you.

    But where we differ is that you think Man Chooses God out of his own free will choice. I believe God gives man a desire to choose Him. It is not a forcing act, it is a loving act. And no He does not give that same opportunity to every man.

    Again the same illustration - When I was born physically, I didn't ask to be born. But upon my physical birth I was delighted to find myself the child of loving parents.

    The same thing occurs within the Spiritual realm. I didn't ask to be Born Again - I wasn't seeking Him when He sought me. I didn't repent and somehow get accepted by God. I got regenerated and I turned away from my sin and turned to God. And no He didn't force me to do anything. When I realized how much he loved me - I merely responded.

    When I said Yes to God, I couldn't say No. I did not feel violated, forced or pulled against my own will. I said yes freely and completely without any reservation.

    I think I'll let Number 2 stand because it is absolutely true.
     
  13. Frogman

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    God does not force anything on man.


    Acts 10:44  ¶While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

    note the word fell

    G1968
    ἐπιπίπτω
    epipiptō
    ep-ee-pip'-to
    From G1909 and G4098; to embrace (with affection) or seize (with more or less violence; literally or figuratively): - fall into (on, upon), lie on, press upon.

    note also:

    all them which heard the word.

    G191
    ἀκούω
    akouō
    ak-oo'-o
    A primary verb; to hear (in various senses): - give (in the) audience (of), come (to the ears), ([shall]) hear (-er, -ken), be noised, be reported, understand.


    understand

    Just thought I would throw in my 2 pence.

    God Bless
    Bro Dallas Eaton

    Being born is a travailing experience, it would seem there is a similitude of violence portrayed. It occurs only when an individual is made aware while the wrath of God is abiding on them. Then the old nature dies, yeah, seems violent to me.

    Think of Christ's analogy of putting new wine in old wineskins, would the resulted rupture of the old wined bag not be by violence?

    Just some of my thoughts.
     
  14. ScottEmerson

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    It doesn't matter if it is a loving act or not. Forcing is still forcing. Discipline is forced on a child by a loving parent for the child's good. Yet it is still forced. I'm not disagreeing on the reason why it is forced, but in your theory, man wants nothing to do with such a change, and GOd gives it to him anyway.

     
  15. Yelsew

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    OK Frogman, Does spirit have mass? Does it have weight? Is there any mass that spirit is subject to?
    Spirit is impervious to all natural elements, passing though solids as a dove flies though air and a fish swims through water. Spirit does not exert force against the natural elements because there is no need to, it passes right though without any disturbance whatever.
     
  16. neal4christ

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    For circumstances to be most conducive for the person to be persuaded and for conviction of the Holy Spirit. We shouldn't pray for God to 'save' somebody or to 'force' them to believe. That is contrary to who He is. Far too often when we pray we don't really consider what we pray for and how correct it is.

    By the way, what is the point of praying at all as a Calvinist? It especially doesn't matter in reference to salvation, because the elect are going to be saved no matter what, whether you pray or not.

    Neal
     
  17. Hardsheller

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    You mean like the Apostle Paul?
     
  18. ScottEmerson

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    You mean like the Apostle Paul? [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Perhaps. But if Paul was indeed forced, your second point is null and void.
     
  19. Hardsheller

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    Scott E.,

    E.Y. Mullins, who is claimed by modern Southern Baptists, to be the Father of Southern Baptist Doctrine, (and who was not a pure Calvinist by any definition of the word) says the following in his book - "The Christian Religion in Its Doctrinal Expression".

    "The Gospel is efficacious with some and not efficacious with others because God's grace is operative in the one case beyond the degree of its action in the other."

    He goes on to say that this is not a matter of physical force but rather of spiritual and moral force.

    I therefore consider my belief very consistent with and highly compatible with modern Southern Baptist Doctrine.

    The BF&M 2000 says - Election is the gracious purpose of God, according to which He regenerates, justifies, sanctifies, and glorifies sinners. It is consistent with the free agency of man, and comprehends all the means in connection with the end. It is the glorious display of God's sovereign goodness, and is infinitely wise, holy, and unchangeable. It excludes boasting and promotes humility.

    My belief is also compatible with the BF&M 2000 statement and is therefore "in Line" with modern Southern Baptist Beliefs.

    So No, Scott, I will not rewrite #2 because not only is it in the Bible it's officially sanctioned by Southern Baptists! [​IMG]
     
  20. KenH

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    It appears that the apostle Paul violated your commandment.

    Romans 10:1 (ESV)
    Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved.

    1 Tim. 2:1-6 (ESV)
    [1]First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, [2] for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. [3] This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, [4] who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. [5] For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, [6] who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

    You also said:
    A quick perusal of the Bible shows many verses where Christians are commanded by God to pray. Therefore, to not pray is to violate a command of God. Are you advocating that Calvinistic Christians should sin because you disagree with Calvinistic soteriology? Of course you aren't. [​IMG]
     

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