'72 hours'

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Gerhard Ebersoehn, Oct 2, 2008.

  1. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    Ed Edwards,
    "... ...
    Matthew 12:39-40 (NIV):
    He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
    40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

    'Day' and 'night' here contrast each other:
    'day' = the 12 hours of the daily cycle where light is predominate
    'night' = the 12 hours of the daily cycle were dark is predominate

    three days + 3 nights
    = 3 (12 hours) + 3 (12 hours)
    = 36 hours + 36 hours
    = 72 hours

    The arithmetic part of mathematics is lots truer (though not scripture) than history books (where people have reasons to lie). But it sure seems to me that Jesus predicted he would be '72 hours in the belly of the earth'. So that is what I said.

    The traditional Friday to Sunday morning is
    Friday (our time) 6PM to Midnight - 6 hours of night
    Saturday Midnight to 6AM - 6 hours of night
    Saturday 6AM to 6PM - 12 hours of day
    Saturday 6PM to Midnight - 6 hours of night
    Sunday Midnight to 6 am - 6 hours of night

    Adds up to 24 hours of might and 12 hours of day = 36 hours NOT 76 hours needed

    So the Traditional Friday to Sunday morning burial of Jesus is WRONG - it does not fulfill the prophecy of Jesus."


    GE:
    "as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

    is not ---

    Ed Edwards:
    "3 nights and 3 days in the belly of the earth:"


    Do not say this is my, 'pet' theory. It is not.

    I accept the words of Mt12:40. Stick to them and their contextual meaning, to find 'my', 'theory'.

    The most obvious difference, dear Ed, between your 'interpretation' and mine, is that I hold together what has been put together, where as you do not. As a result, you make of what was figurative, literal; and of what was literal, figurative. Spot the places, and win the insight.
     
  2. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    Beginning and End of Period

    “And after that he is killed, He shall rise the third day.Mk.9:31Christ rose the third day after death”, says Ryle. These are the starting point and the end of the “fulfillment” of the sign of Jonah – Christ’s death, and, resurrection. The beacons are not, as Ryle also says, “our Lord’s burial the very day that He died” and his resurrection. Burial, and, resurrection as complementary beginning and end did notsecure the fulfillment of His famous prophecy. What secured the fulfillment was Christ’s deathand, resurrection. The moment of Christ's dying indicates the start of the count of the days He would be dead. “The third day” He would rise again – which implies that he would live again. The moment of Christ’s resurrection would determine which day was third, and not vice versa. The moment of Christ’s death would determine which day was first. The fact that it was the third day in time did not cause Christ to rise, but his power to rise from the dead made sure the third day. Even so his power to lay down His life of his own will made sure the day appointed first of God’s eternal council.
    Jonah’s experience has restricted analogous significance. It is only used as paradigm and is not the reality of Christ’s experience. What Christ meant by comparing his pending experience with that of Jonah, was to indicate the depth of that experience and the greatness of his accomplishment – not to prove three days and three nights to be the exact period of his being closed in the grave. The three days and three nights did not have any significance until given significance by the death and resurrection of Jesus. The “sign of Jonah” was to be made what the Church confesses, I believe in Jesus Christ who died and was buried and descended to hell and was risen from the dead the third day”. As such is it a sign “given” and a promise fulfilled to the people. We have received this sign in its fullness without giving a seventy-two hours one blink of thought.
    Now see how beautifully the real meaning of “the sign of Jonah” has been fulfilled in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. “I (on the cross as in Gethsémané) cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord and He heard Me (in the resurrection). Out of the belly of hell (the depth of despair “unto death”) cried I, and Thou heardest my voice. For Thou hast cast Me into the deep (death), in the midst of the seas; and the floods (of death and hell) compassed Me about. All thy billows and thy waves (God’s anger, hate, revenge and judgement because of sin) passed over Me. Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight (“My God, my God, Why hast thou forsaken Me?”); yet will I look again toward thy holy temple (when I have triumphed over death). The waters compassed Me about – to the very soul: The depth closed Me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head. (This was death and its claws closing down on Jesus.) I went down to the bottom of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about Me for ever. (This was eternal hell.) Yet hast Thou brought up my life from corruption, O Lord my God. (“His flesh shall not see corruption.”) When my soul fainted (died) within me I remembered the Lord. (I remembered his promises.) And my prayer came in unto Thee, in thine holy temple.” (“He raised Him from the
    dead and set Him at his own right hand in the heavenly places far above all principality and power and might and dominion and every name that is named.”)
    Perspective on the relation between the events and their importance, destroys the arbitrary restriction of the expression “three days and three nights” to a literal three days period of seventy-two hours of being buried. Proper perspective means not that Christ was dead not three days or that He rose from the dead not the third day. It only means that the “three days and three nights” should also be given its proper significance. “Salvation is of the Lord” 2:9 – not “of three days and three nights”. Jesus would wrought salvation and be the Lord from whom salvation comes. He would die for it and obtain it in resurrection. That is the “sign of Jonah”.

    5.1.1.6.2.4.5.
    The Only Bible Definition which Counts Up the Amount of Time”?

    Refer to the booklet The Resurrection was not on Sunday by H.B. Armstrong, 15/5/92. In this document its author insists that unless three full days and three full nights are meant in the expression “three days and three nights”, “it is not three days and three nights.The requirement was to spend three days and three nights in the earth.” (Paper 159) In the Booklet it is said that “In Mt.27:63 Jesus is quoted as saying, ”After three days I shall rise again”. This cannot possibly be figured as less than 72 full hours.” p. 7d “If He rose after three days (as Jesus was ‘quoted’), it might have been more than 72 hours, but it could not have been a second less.” par. b “The time required to fulfill ”the third day”, p. 6a could not be one second past seventy-two hours.” p. 7b But, still on page 7, paragraph c, “Notice now Mark 9:31, ”… They shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.” The duration expressed here (says Armstrong) – must be between 48 and 72 hours.
    By any process of arithmetic” par. b the present writer is unable to solve such equations. Nevertheless the thrust is recognised, namely that the Wednesday crucifixion theory accepts no second less and no second more than three days of 12 hours each and three nights of 12 hours each for “the time required to fulfil “the third day.” But we shudder to contemplate the claim that “We here have the only Bible definition which explains and counts up the amount of time involved in the expression “the third day” … and that Jesus said (the three days) contained twelve hours for each … a total of 72 hours! (Emphasis CGE) These documents (Paper 159 and Armstrong’s booklet)obviously do not recognise the thrust of the phrase “three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.


     
  3. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    The Real Comparison

    The whole passage in Jonah 2 is symbolic yet records Jonah’s literal experience of being swallowed by a fish of sea. Mt.12:40 should, in terms of day and night sequence and duration, not be taken for three full day-cycles of 24 hours each.
    To what about Jonah did Jesus compare his pending experience?
    Jesus’ words are, “As Jonah was in the fish’s belly three days and three nights, so shall the Son of man be” not, “in the fish’s belly”, but, “in the heart of the earth”. To be “in the belly of the fish” is the description of Jonah’s being swallowed by or being “buried” in the fish. In that state of being buried “in the belly of the fish”, Jonah then found himself in great “distress”, even “in the heart of the earth. There, buried in the belly of the fish, Jonah, by fear and anguish, “was in the heart of the earth”. Being “in the belly of the fish” describes Jonah’s “grave”! Being “in the heart of the earth”, describes Jonah’s state of mind and soul, while being “buried” in his “grave”. Being “in the belly of the fish” happened literally. Being “in the heart of the earth”, happened figuratively.
    Jesus says, “As Jonah was (buried in his grave) in the belly of the fish … so shall the Son of man (of distress of death) be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights”!
    Jesus referred to the ‘sign’ or ‘symbol’ of Jonah as a “sign” of his own and real experience of suffering and death and resurrection from the dead.
    The ‘sign’ should not be seen as something that did not actually happen. The application is symbolic, yet TRUE.Sign’ implies comparison – which means an “indicationnot fully equal to what is signified.As Jonah” presupposes incomplete resemblance between the compared.As Jonah was in the whale’s belly”, “so shall the Son of man be in the heart of the earth! Where is the literal agreement? There is only the symbolic pertinence.
    “As Jonah” is the determining phrase. What happened,as” “with Jonah, not with the “three days and three nights”, is the “sign. Jonah, was”; he,“was in the fish’s belly”. Jesus, “as Jonah”, “was” – not the “three days and three nights”, “were”. “Three days and three nights” “are” not the subject of being the “sign”.
    If “three days and three nights” are taken for literally three full seventy-two hour days, consistency demands that everything else of the comparison must be taken for literal – which would be impossible. Jesus really died. Jonah did not. Were literalness strictly adhered to it implies a sea-burial of the living Man Jesus. Jonah was saved – not so Jesus. Jesus had to conquer death and was risen from actual death – not so Jonah. Jesus was buried in the earth, Jonah sank into “the middle of the sea “underneath the mountains”. There is no literal correspondence, only the figurative, or, in Biblical language, the “prophetic” or “sign”-ificant bearing on Jesus’ “live” experience to use a modern day expression.
    Because the phrase “three days and three nights” comes from a symbolic, poetic, context, the phrase itself should be understood for what it is, and not for hours, minutes and seconds! It is going overboard (“as Jonah”!) to insist on 72 hours or twelve hours in the day” as the only true “fulfillment” of the “sign of Jonah”.
    The “three days and three nights” are not three calendar days. They are the two parts of a day-cycle, three times. But they perfectly coincide with and correspond to three ordinary calendar-days.


    Jonah’s “three days and three nights” are not those of the “Scriptures” generally – they are not the usual, Paschal Scriptures’ “three days”. Yet Jonah’s writing is intense poetical Paschal Scripture.
    Where Matthew elsewhere refers to the “three days” “according to the Scriptures”, he simply says “days”, Mt,26:61, 27:40, 63. Also Mark and John (in the Gospels) only speak of “three days”. So also Luke (in Acts) and Paul only speak of “the third day”. All New Testament Scriptures clearly intend to say “days”.
    Only Matthew 12:40 quotes Jonah and the“three days and three nights”. Jesus, being a Jew who spoke Aramaic and read the Old Testament in Hebrew, it may be assumed He “as His custom was”, otherwise would have meant “three (normal) days”. But in this one instance actually quoting, Jesus says “three days and three nights”. Jesus quoted, “three days and three nights” exactly as it reads in Jonah 1:17 – in the original Hebrew meaning what in normal Hebrew thinking, it was: “three dayssine qua non. Even though in duration the phrase would equal three day-cycles it in sequence does not. If counted, “three days and three nights” add up to the total of two things, namely “of three days”, and, “of three nights” (Genitive in the LXX) It does not add up to six by twelve, full hours.
    “Three days and three nights”, “literally”, are “three days and three nights” and not “seventy two hours”. Jesus speaks of days and of nights and not of hours.
    “Three days and three nights” (in Mt.12:40 from Jonah 1:17) comes from the original Hebrew yamin, plural of yom –“day”, and yalil, “nights”. In the Greek of the Septuagint the assonance of the Hebrew got lost. But Jesus didn’t speak Greek; He quoted from the Hebrew. Jonah in poetic prose uses the same vowel sound with different consonants in successive words of stressed syllables (yamin and yalil) to indicate “rough similarity or partial correspondence”. (Collins English Dictionary) While enhancing the beauty of his prose the figure of speech impresses the depth of Jonah’s despair!

    In Gn.1:14 yamin is used for the night-day-unit that includes the night: “For seasons and for DAYS and for years”, “days” of full cycle irrespective of duration full or part. Jonah 1:17 is repetitive, or pleonastic. Fully literally, Jonah’s expression would mean, “three days and (as many) nights (= yamin) plus three nights (= yalil)”, which emphasises the literalness of “three days and three nights”. Emphasis is not for the sake of exact duration, but for the sake of poetic intensity: The whole prophetic period seen from its fulfillment.
    The New Testament speaks of three days”: conditioned by the all-important principle,according to the Scriptures”. But Jesus quotes “three days and three nights”, which is another use of words with different meaning. He would be “in the heart of the earth”, “three days and three nights! The phrase bears on Jesus’ suffering as Passover Lamb.“Three days and three nights” were involved in Jesus’ dying, and in his death, primarily and determinate with reference to the Passover (Pascha) of Yahweh. “Three days and three nights” were involved in Jesus’ dying and in his death, to RISE “the third day” – primarily and determinedly “according to the Scriptures” = “according to the Passover Institution”.
     
  4. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    I have a recipe for a difficult case to solve like what we are busy with. Let us take the
    hard fact, analyse them, and see how it works out.” “Jesus is the supreme authority.
    His Word is untouchable and cannot be doubted.

    Why then do we differ? It all starts where we “analyse the hard facts, and see how it works out.” “He saidnot, “that He would be three days and three nights in the grave”. That is to create a fact of our own. Literally “it is written”, that Jesus would be “in the heart of the earth three days and three nights”, “as Jonah”, when he, “for three days and three nights was in the belly of the fish”. Jonah was both these things “in the heart of the earth”, and, “in the belly of the fish”, at once – he experienced both these things simultaneously and as a living person. Jesus would not be in the condition of both at once. Jesus experienced, what it was to be “in the heart of the earth”, “as Jonah”, but was not, “as Jonah”, “in the belly of the fish” or in the grave, “three days and three nights”, simultaneous and as a living person. The grave holds no fears, no anguish, no sorrow, no perplexity, “even unto death”. But death itself holds these fears and anguish and sorrow and perplexity. And Jesus bore it all, it of all the many He died for, and it of all times, vicariously. He received and accepted that “cup” in his Jonah-experience of Gethsémané . Gethsémané was Jesus’ Passover, His “cupto drink, which He did, “as Jonah”, His soul having descended “in the heart of the earth” of being “exceeding sorrowful even unto death”. And Jesus emptied that cup in finally dying that day!
    One “night” of the “three nights” is accounted for in Jesus’ Gethsémané experience as truly as He was dead “in the heart of the earth” another two nights.
    All attempts at explaining the time, must take into account these facts too.” All the “additional information which the Bible collectively supplies”, gives no different answer to our difficult to solve case”.
     
  5. EdSutton

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    Your source, which here you do not identify, in this conclusion here, is nothing more than sanctimonious, religious-sounding hogwash.

    Whatever exactly Matthew 12:39-40 may be saying, this ain't it!

    Ed
     
  6. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    'Hogwash' that Luther said, Christ descended to hell before he died; 'hogwash' that Calvin said the same; 'hogwash' that Klaas Schilder wrote the greatest of 'lent' literature, maintaining the same --- etc. Then it's 'hogwash', of highest calibre of Christian Faith.

    Then what the Gospels say - or rather, what God says - in the Scriptures and by the Scriptures I have quoted above, is, by the estimation of Ed Sutton, nothing more than sanctimonious, religious-sounding hogwash.

    I do not know, but I am convinced, somewhere 'in heaven' a few notes have been dotted down in something called "The Books".
     
  7. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    But now, here's the really interesting part:
    If not it had been Wednesday night thus indicated, but had been Thursday night thus indicated, Ed Suttun would have acclaimed holy, pure religion sounding gospel!

    It's just you. Ed Sutton, confess to believe the day in Bible-reckoning begins and starts with sunset, and that the part of the day represents that day in whole --- but, deny and bely your own confession the moment it is tested with the instance of "the three days" "according to the Scriptures". Because all of a sudden, Ed Sutton adds a forth night to the three complete days "according to the Scriptures", but maintain he still believes "on the third day" "according to the Scriptures.
    Apply these words of yours, Ed Sutton, to yourself: "nothing more than sanctimonious, religious-sounding hogwash"
     
  8. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    Originally Posted by Ed Edwards (on another thread)
    I believe that Jesus Arose from the Dead in AD 0033 - no Bible proof of the date (lots of Bible proof that Jesus Arose from the Dead).

    .... I believe that Jesus Arose from the dead late (about 6PM) on Sabbath day. (In a week where there were two Sabbaths). The fact that Jesus had arose UP from the grave was not found out about by anybody until the first day of the week.


    GE:

    I agree on everything you say, Ed Edwards, except on this, "(about 6PM)"

    "about 6PM" the time of year and according to Jewish reckoning of 12 hours in a day, would have been exactly sunset.
    Now sunset the MOMENT the sun disappeared for anybody in any place wheresoever is the end of the previous and the start of the next day for that person --- unproblematic!
    So 'sunset' is neither the one nor the other day, but is second 0 between any two days. You cannot - therefore - maintain it was "on Sabbath day" if 'sunset'; 'sunset would practically be after the Sabbath.

    'Sunset' - therefore - also cannot be "late ... on Sabbath day".

    Nevertheless, you are quite right, Jesus did rise from the dead and grave, "late on the Sabbath" --- BECAUSE --- and there are at least FOUR indicators WHY, 'late' and 'ON' the 'Sabbath Day': These are:
    1) the Adverb, 'late'-'opse', also meaning 'fulness' or 'ripeness' or 'slow hours'.
    2) the Genitive, "OF Sabbath'S"-time, which means it still had to be "ON" the Sabbath Day;
    3) the Dative and the word-meanings literally of "in the centre of being (day)LIGHT" 'tehi epifohskousehi' ---- which is also ruled by the Genitive "OF the Sabbath Day": It was "the in the centre of being (day)LIGHT-OF-THE-SABBATH-DAY". In other - plain - words: "mid-after-noon", i.e., 3pm.
    4) the words and the Case, "TOWARDS / BEFORE the First Day of the week" ---Accusative!

    This text in itself, Mt28:1, is but one of the far greater picture of PROPHECY that throughout the Bible indicated Jesus' resurrection had to have happened on the Sabbath Day. Just one example of such prophecy are the very words of Gn2, that God on the Seventh Day rested -- which God no how ever did but, in and through Jesus Christ ---- in and through resurrection from the dead and grave. For Jesus' resurrection was "the exceeding greatness of the power of God which He worked", and so fulfilled "All the works of God" --- or 'finished' them, Hb4:4-5.

     
  9. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    GE:
    In THREE places, Jesus said, "I was daily with you ... in the temple ... teaching .... (wherever!) ... but you took me not: BUT, that the Scriptures must be fulfilled!" A FOURTH time in only other words in John 18:8-9.

    Why THIS night? Why NOW, this hour? Because, as John - and Luke - said in more than one place, "The hour is come; GLORIFY thy Son, that thy Son also may GLORIFY thee.
    HERE WITH THIS NIGHT BEGINS the 'three days and, three night', the Son of man, would be - that is - would go THROUGH "the heart of the earth".
     
  10. ray Marshall

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    The days with our calander will not add up. Use the Jewish calander.
     
  11. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    What do you mean with 'Jewish days'?
    The 'days' (meant in Mt12:40) are 'Scriptural' days - generic 'Bible' days; specific 'Passover's-days'.

    And all of them are 'reckoned' as consiting of the night-half first beginning with sunset; and the light-half second, to end with sunset again.
     
  12. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    Before the sun of this threads sets beneath the bottom line of the page, I want to revive it.

    Just yesterday again I saw the atheists attacking Christianity ... because of the 'contradictions' contained in the Gospel stories about angels and earthquakes and so on ....
     
  13. Ed Edwards

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    Amen, Brother Gehard Ebersoehn -- you are RIGHT ON (the subject)! :thumbs:

    Again, I contend that Jesus was placed in the grave just before sundown the day He died (on Wednesday).
    The next day (Thursday) was a special Sabbath (relative to the Passover season).
    Early the morning of Friday (a non-Sabbath) the event of Mark 16:1 took place:

    Mark 16:1 ;(KJV1611 Edition):
    And when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of Iames, and Salome, had bought sweete spices, that they might come and anoint him.

    Early the morning of Saturday (regular Sabbath) the events of Mark 16:2+ occured:

    Mar 16:2-3 (KJV1611 Edition):
    And very early in the morning, the first day of the week they came vnto the sepulchre, at the rising of the sunne:
    3 And they said among themselues, who shall roll vs away the stone from the doore of the sepulchre?

    1. On a Sabbath the ladies cannot (according to Jewish Laws of clean & unclean) anoint a dead body. So I believe that the anointing took place on a non-Sabbath. Recall that the dead Body of Jesus was taken to a grave on the day He died because the frinds of Jesus didn't want to violate the Jewish Laws of clear & unclean.

    I heard this argument once and checked it out. It appears to be a valid argument/point. The Jewish Laws of Holy Days (AKA: Holidays) have a whole week of activities in the days following the eating of the Passover Lamb (remember that was eaten by Jesus and his followers the day of his Trial & Execution - non-Sabbath (Friday). I found that the first day of the week after the passover Lamb is a Special Sabbath, the 7th day of that week is a Special Sabbath (and the regular Sabbaths are observed as regular. Obviously some years (an average one in seven) the two Special Sabbaths fall on Regular Sabbaths.

    Lev 23:5 -9 In the fourteenth day of the first moneth at euen, is the Lords Passeouer.
    6 And on the fifteenth day of the same moneth, is the feast of vnleauened bread vnto the Lord: seuen dayes ye must eate vnleauened bread.
    7 In the first day ye shall haue an holy conuocation: ye shall do no seruile worke therein.
    8 But ye shal offer an offring made by fire vnto the Lord seuen dayes: in the seuenth day is an holy conuocation, Ye shall doe no seruile worke therein.

    Instead of 'Holy Convocation' I've used the term 'Special Sabbath'.

    Wed, 14th Day of First Month - Passover after Sundown, Jesus Hung on a tree at dawn, died at 3PM, buried before sundown
    Thur, 15th Day of First Month - First Day in the Grave - Special Sabbath - first day of Unleavened Bread
    Fri, Second Day in the Grave - Special Sacrifices - second day of Unleavened Bread
    Sat, Third Day in the Grave - Special Sacrifices, Regular Sabbath, third day of Unleavened Bread - Jesus was alive at the end of the day
    Sun, Resurrection of Jesus found by the Disciples - Special Sacrifices, 4th day of Unleavened Bread - RESURRECTION SUNDAY
    Mon, Special Sacrifices, 5th day of Unleavened Bread
    Tues, Special Sacrifices, 6th day of Unleavened Bread
    Wed, Special Sabbath, 7th day of Unleavened Bread
    Thur
    Fri
    Sat, Weekly Sabbath
     
    #13 Ed Edwards, Oct 21, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 21, 2008
  14. Allan

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    No, God's word stands what doesn't seem to stand is your rendering/twisting of God's Word (any your 'source' as well) is that which was refered to as "sanctimonious, religious-sounding hogwash".
     
  15. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    GE:
    WHAT, was 'my', "'source'"??? Don't give me your or Ed Sutton's opinions of it, but I dare you, bring that quoted "'source'" over in here! Bring it here, so that we can see WHAT it is you, judge, "sanctimonious, religious-sounding hogwash". You will not bring it here, I dare say, because you well know, it is God's Word, letter for letter, and word for word, that you will have to quote in this space.
     
  16. Allan

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    I do dare :thumbs:

    Your posts 2, 3, and 4 have some scripture in them but they are not the Word of God but the words of men, which I fear you seemingly presume to be god?

    I doubt and hope not. The judgment is given - What you gave is not the Word of God but Mens opinions ABOUT God's words in His Word.

    So yes, it is still "hogwash" (in relation to your opinion) and not THE Word of God - as was previously noted.
     
  17. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    In post 2 I comment on the meaning of Jonah's experience of the three days and three night jesus referred to.

    In post 3 I referred to Amstrong's wrong impression of these three days in that he viewed them as 72 hours from and to any point of time of day in the grave, and not in the experiencing of hellish suffering, live for what Jesus and Jonah described as days and nights -- not hours.

    In post 3 you will find this, among a lot of other things, "“Three days and three nights”, “literally”, are “three days and three nights” and not “seventy two hours”. Jesus speaks of days and of nights and not of hours."

    Now that, according to Allen here, on this thread, is that ugly stuff he had not the originality to formulate his own insults for, but had to borrow from Ed Sutton who has had not a word to say on this thread yet. Again, I delight in receiving insult and in being accused falsely. It is surest proof the insulting party finds himself in the loosing corner. And may I say, it is my utter joy to suffer injustice for the sake of the Name of Jesus Christ.

    I still challenge you, Allen, be specific: Quote which you found "nothing more than sanctimonious, religious-sounding hogwash".

    I suggest you find another kind of forum than 'theology' which demands perhaps a bit too much integrity and intelligence for certain people.

    Another thing. Your reference at first was to what I have said on another thread on which Ed Sutton then reacted. Don't now pretend you referred to posts of mine on this thread; it's hypocritical.
     
    #17 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Oct 22, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 22, 2008
  18. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    Ed Edwards:
    "On a Sabbath the ladies cannot (according to Jewish Laws of clean & unclean) anoint a dead body. So I believe that the anointing took place on a non-Sabbath. Recall that the dead Body of Jesus was taken to a grave on the day He died because the frinds of Jesus didn't want to violate the Jewish Laws of clear & unclean."


    GE:
    Dear Ed, I appreciate your cincere critique; thanks!

    There may have been many Judaistic taboos in this regard that would not apply Scripturally. We should take the Scriptures as norm and nobody else; least of all the erring and unbelieving Jews.

    Kindly give me the Scripture for, "On a Sabbath the ladies cannot (according to Jewish Laws of clean & unclean) anoint a dead body"? I do not say it does not exist! But would it apply to the Passover's sacrifice? Certain Laws were overruled by other Laws! And so was it in the case of the Sabbath most of all. Take the double sacrifices for the Sabbath and special offerings for the Sabbath like the shewbread. Take the congregational commands that made the restricted distance of a 'Sabbath-walk' of no effect. Etc.

    Yes, the women did prepare their spices and ointments on Friday afternoon before the weekly Sabbath, which Friday happened to be, as John expressly stated: "a great day that [just started, prospective] Sabbath Day" - 'ehn gar megaleh heh hemera ekeinou tou sabbatou'.

    On the afternoon of this (retrospective) 'Friday-sabbath', says John also, "There laid they Jesus because of the preparations of the Jews", normally and out of the normal which still had to be made for the following (weekly) Sabbath Day. Jn19:31, 42. Cf. Lk23:56.

    These two Scriptures in themselves show that specific tasks were allowed and even obligatory on "a Great Day Sabbath" or 'Feast Sabbath'. In this case it of course was the Passover 'sabbath' of (Friday) Nisan 15.

    There are other arguments to confirm, but I don't want to go into them now.
     
  19. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    Ed Edwards:
    "Recall that the dead Body of Jesus was taken to a grave on the day He died because the frinds of Jesus didn't want to violate the Jewish Laws of clear & unclean."

    GE:
    No, soryy, I cannot recall. And I don't think you can refresh my memory with Scripture, dear Ed Edwards.

    What I may, please, refresh you memory with, dear Ed Edwards, is Mk15:42/Mt27:57 which - as I have often before shown - categorically states that "It had become evening already, being the Preparation Day which is the Fore-Sabbath" - starting - WHEN ONLY, Joseph turned up, and went to Pilate to ask for permission to bury the body. Evening had started with sunset (as we agree on). And first - after sunset and before Joseph had done a thing - the Jews brought their request before Pilate. Cf. Jn19:31 with 38!

    So a good deal of the night after Jesus had died, had already elapsed before Joseph could even have reached the crosses. HOW COULD HE HAVE FINISHED WITH THE BURIAL BEFORE SUNSET IF THE SUNSET OF THE DAY Jesus DIED ON? Impossible!

    But more important than the practical impossibility of it, is the fact the SCRIPTURES instructed the "REMAINS" of the Passover-sacrifice be taken away and be burnt the NEXT day, ON ISRAEL'S JOURNEY THROUGH! (So with Jesus, on His Journey Through!) We Christians do not WANT to be reminded of these Paschal Truths, because we have no palate for them, and have developed a taste for 'spiritual things' all our own .
     
  20. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    Ed Edwards:
    "Early the morning of Friday (a non-Sabbath) the event of Mark 16:1 took place:

    Mark 16:1 ;(KJV1611 Edition):
    And when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of Iames, and Salome, had bought sweete spices, that they might come and anoint him."


    GE:
    'The event of Mark 16:1 took place' ... "When the Sabbath had gone through", 'diagenomenou tou sabbatou'. When the sun had set the Sabbath had gone through. 'The event of Mark 16:1 took place' ... NOT when the night and first half of the First Day (Sunday) had gone through. It would have been impossible, because by then Jesus would have had risen already.

    And may other reasons to the same effect (for later if necessary).

    Most important is to keep in mind the indisputable 'Sabbath' it was that followed the day of the women's preparation of spices and ointments. Mk15:42 defines it exactly: "The Preparation Day WHICH WAS the FORE-SABBTH". Only one day qualifies: It was Friday.

    Now you fail to distinguish between the TWO 'events' of this Friday afternoon (about three hours before sunset), and that of the 'Saturdaynight'' "when the Sabbath had gone through". Friday's 'event' was the preparations of TWO specific women; Saturdaynight's 'event' was the PURCHASE by THREE specific women. Every given fact confirms the two 'event' were of different days.

    So there is absolutely NO grounds for assuming a non-sabbath-day IN BETWEEN the day of the preparation of the spices and the weekly Sabbath following and the First Day of the week following the weekly Sabbath. Mark gives a coherent whole of every day involved, just like the other Gospels do.
     

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