A close look at Rom 11 !

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by savedbymercy, Sep 16, 2011.

  1. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
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    This thread is a continuation of what I began to set forth in another thread that was started by another forum member. I will continue the presentation of Romans 11 here and show that it has never been God's Intention nor desire to save all of Ethnic Israel, all of Israel Yes, but not all of ethnic Israel. The Israel God has promised to save as here Isa 45:17

    But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

    Not National Israel, but Israel, the Chosen People of God in Christ. All of the promises of God are yea and amen IN HIM to the Glory of God 2 Cor 1:20

    For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

    Now is Isa 45:17 a Promise of God ? If it is, then its fulfilled through Christ and His Everlasting Salvation which He wrought through the Blood of the Everlasting Covenant Heb 13:20 as the Great Shepherd of the Sheep.

    Before resuming what has been started in the other thread let me set the foundation here of what has been the problem.

    Much of what God promised to Israel [ Spiritual Israel] was as She was conjoined with Natural Israel, for they had one thing in common, Abraham was their Father, according to the Flesh. However we must remember that God has always [in spite of the co mingling of both the spiritual and natural descendants of Abraham] God has always realized Two Israel's Abraham's Spiritual Seed and His Natural Seed.

    Jesus said once to Abraham's Natural Seed the jews this Jn 8:37

    I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

    Then right after that He says Jn 8:39

    39They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

    You see that ? Here Jesus is denying that they are Abraham's Children ! Why ? Because Jesus is making a distinction between Abraham's Physical Seed and His Spiritual Seed.

    And so Paul affirms this truth, that there are Two Israel's by Rom 9:6


    6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

    Amen, thats exactly what Jesus was Illustrating in Jn 8:37-39. Now what can be confusing is this, That the spiritual seed that was in Ethnic Israel, are not manifested as the Spiritual Seed until Faith has been given them, so until then they can only be recognized as part of the mere physical seed.

    Now under the Old Economy, the Children of Promise [ Spiritual Israel] and the Children of the Flesh [ Natural Israel] coexisted together under one National Covenant. The children of the bondwoman, those under the mosaic covenant given at Sinai, The Israel or Jerusalem from below with the children of the freewoman under the eternal and heavenly covenant Jerusalem from above See Gal 4. However under the New Covenant Economy this would have to end, which was prefigured allegorically when Sarah told Abraham to get rid of Hagar [The Bond woman] and he son for they shall not be heirs with the Child of Promise Isaac Gal 4:30

    30Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

    And thats what the casting away of National Israel according to the flesh fulfills.

    Rom 11:15

    15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?


    You see apparently for a long time the Two sets of Children shared the same Covenant Home Ishmael and Isaac, this prefigures how that Israel of the flesh had joint privileges with Israel of Promise, thats why both elect jews and non elect jews could partake of the Lord's passover, because the children of the flesh and of the promise had the same Natural Father, Abraham, just like Ishmael and Isaac ! But God always made a difference. Now under the New Covenant dispensation this difference would be made more conspicuous with those who believed on Christ and those who did not. Abraham's Spiritual Seed, the Isaacs will or did receive Christ, but his mere physical seed will not. So Faith is the distinguishing evidence of who Israel of Promise is, and not national distinction or any physical or racial distancing. But Faith has always been the main evidence since it was by Faith that Heb 11:

    8By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

    9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

    10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

    And os its by Faith we are the True Children of Abraham and Heirs according to Promise Gal 3:7,9

    Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

    So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

    I will resume the Rom 11 study with a look at vs 15

    14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

    15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

    I welcome all comments as long as they are in direct response to what I point out, please no rabbit trails and be able to provide an alternative view with corresponding explanation as I have done.
     
  2. savedbymercy

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    Rom 11:15

    15 for if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

    Paul is in essence saying here, if the breaking off of National Israel [ Many ethnic Jews in Israel] for the purpose of reconciling or grafting into Covenant Israel [ The election] Gentiles [ Eph 2] , what shall the receiving of them be [ the Elect Remnant in Israel] but life from the dead. Basically, to see some of His own countrymen converted to Jesus Christ, after the nation as a whole had been cut off and Judged by the cross, that would be like experiencing life from the dead.

    In other words, there were [ at Paul's time] yet some ethnic Jews , who belonged to Christ, but yet appeared to be broken off because of their unbelief, they would yet still experience a spiritual resurrection, be passed from death unto life, because they [as Paul] belonged to the election of grace.

    Seeing one of His fellow countrymen converted to Jesus, is like life from the dead Paul is saying.
     
  3. Dr. Walter

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    Soooo, "them" in the first half of the verse means National Israel but "them" in the latter part of the verse means remnant Israel and you get to decide what "them" and "they" and "their" means instead of the grammatical antecedent to those pronouns????? How convenient? You just abritrarily determine the meaning to make it fit your interpretation instead of letting the contextual grammar determine what interpretation should be embraced? How convenient!


    So the "them" that is cast off and dead in the first half is a different "them" that is reconciled and brought to life in the second half of the verse???? So according to your interpretation the remnant "elect" have been cut off by God. Hey readers, this is the only way to interpret scripture if you want to make it fit YOUR ideas instead of inspired grammar!!!!!

    SBG your interpretation forces you to teach that the "elect" are actually cut off by God!!!! My interpretation never demands that! My interpretation only demands that the nation as it PRESENTLY exists and consists of Christ rejecting Jews as a whole is what is cut off - the non-elect condition of the nation. This consistency of national ethnic Judaism is cut off is only a PRESENT condition. However, the same nation in the future will be transformed from its present consistency due to election (Rom. 11:28). Same "nation" but different consistency in the future than now.
     
    #3 Dr. Walter, Sep 17, 2011
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  4. Dr. Walter

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    SBG your interpretation forces you to teach that the "elect" are actually cut off by God!!!! My interpretation never demands that! My interpretation only demands that the nation as it PRESENTLY exists and consists of Christ rejecting Jews as a whole is what is cut off - the non-elect condition of the nation. This consistency of national ethnic Judaism is cut off is only a PRESENT condition. However, the same nation in the future will be transformed from its present consistency due to election (Rom. 11:28). Same "nation" but different consistency in the future than now.
     
  5. savedbymercy

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    dw

    Yes. National Israel was comprised of ethnic jews, however the casting away of National Israel does not mean all ethnic jews are without hope of Salvation. Some of them are of the remnant according to the Election of Grace, and they will be made manifest whenever they beome Believers in Christ..
     
  6. savedbymercy

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    dw

    No it doesn't. The Nation as a whole was cut off from National Covenant with God, however that does not mean their were not still individual jews to be converted to Christ. Thats why Paul said that blindness in part has happened to National Israel, indicating that not all of Abraham's Physical descendants from there are without hope of salvation.

    That's why Paul said that there was in His Present time still a remnant there according to the election of Grace.

    Also Rom 11:5

    Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

    Thats why he said in 1 Cor 9 about the jews this 1 Cor 9:19-20

    19For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.

    20And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

    22To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
     
  7. Dr. Walter

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    Does not Paul explicitly state that it was that which was cut off that is reconciled and that which is dead that is restored to life????

    You do not have "remnant" Israel cut off or dead so how could it refer to remnant Israel????

    Either "remnant" Israel was PART of what is cut off or it is not! Either "remnant" Israel is PART of what was dead and restored to life or it is not! Which is it?

    You can't have it both ways! If they were not PART of what is cut off then they are not what is reconciled because what is cut off is what is reconciled. If they were not PART of what is dead then they cannot be what is brought back to life because what was dead is what is brought back to life! You cannot have it both ways!
     
  8. Dr. Walter

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    My interpretation is consistent with the langauge and with "them" in both cases.

    1. It is the same "nation as a whole" in regard to both "them"
    2. What is different is the TIME and Constituents.

    The "them" that are cut off is the Nation Israel as a whole, the time when the nation is cut off is PRESENTLY and thus TEMPORARILY before the Second Advent. The constitutency are the non-elect that during this time make up the Nation as a whole.

    The "them" that is reconciled is the Nation of Israel as a whole, the time when they are reconciled is FUTURE at the Second Advent. The constitutency of the nation as a whole then are the elect.

    Therefore, what is cut off now is the same as what is reconciled then - "the nation of Israel as a whole"! However, the time is different between now and then when it is grafted back "again." The constituency is different now than then but it is the same "nation as a whole" as now as then.

     
    #8 Dr. Walter, Sep 17, 2011
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  9. savedbymercy

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    dw

    Your interpretation fails to take into consideration that Abraham's Physical descendants apart from the elect in Christ are not the Children of God..Rom 9:8

    8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
     
  10. Dr. Walter

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    Everyone that has been following us knows you just lied. So why did you say it? I think you said it because, again you cannot deal with the evidence placed before you and so you make a false statement to change the subject.

    I dare you to find one statement in the hundreds of posts that I have written on this subject that supports your false charge above! Just one statement.

    Indeed, on this thread I charged you with an interpretation that cuts of God's elect and your interpretation of Romans 11:15 does that. You have yet to respond to the evidence I presented that demonstrates that charge. I don't think you will respond to it as I don't think you can respond to it HONESTLY!

    In the same post, I explicitly said my position NEVER cuts off the elect.

    I have never said at any time that there are any promised children outside election regardless if we are speaking about Israel or Gentiles. I have never said that non-elect Jews or Gentiles are promise children- Never! So why have you lied?

    My interpretation restricts SPIRITUAL ISRAEL to elect Jews only. My interpretation restricts Jewish promise children presently to the "remnant" according to election and in the future to ELECT national Israel and "all" are elect and "all" are saved at the second coming (Rom. 11:26-28). So why have you told a lie about my position? I will tell you why, because you have a consistent track record of dodging arguments, ignoring contrary evidence to your position and simply misrepresenting God's Word and that all requires lying.
     
    #10 Dr. Walter, Sep 17, 2011
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  11. savedbymercy

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    dw

    Being a Physical jew without being in Christ, even if you can trace your ancestry to Abraham himself, means absolutely nothing, just like Ishmael.

    Rom 9:8

    8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

    And thats a Lie. Their is no ethnicity difference in Christ. Being Spiritual has nothing to do with fleshly descendant. The flesh means nothing. Jn 6:63

    It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

    Jn 1:12-13

    12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    Your interpretation is against one of the main accomplishments of the Cross ! Eph 2:

    14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

    15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

    16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

    You are making race to play a factor in spiritual matters ! Thats an abomination before the Lord..

    Spiritual Israel, the spiritual children of Abraham are all believers in Christ regardless of ethnicity Gal 3:29

    29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    Your bigotry interpretation makes it that only ethnic jews belong to Christ ! I smell false Gospel..
     
    #11 savedbymercy, Sep 17, 2011
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  12. Dr. Walter

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    First you make a direct false accusation and now again, you are making the same false accusation by inference. You are inferring that my interpretation is that merely once born Jews are "in Christ" and "elect" when I have never ever taught such a thing!

    If you will go back to our original discussion on Romans 9:6-8 I emphatically and repeatedly said that Jews must be TWICE BORN and ELECT in order to be the promised children and that this is illustrated by the birth of Isaac and Jacob over Ishmael and Esau.

    SO WHY DO YOU CONTINUE TO LIE ABOUT MY POSITION?
     
  13. Dr. Walter

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    My position is the ONLY position that can harmonize Romans 11:15 or any other scripture in Romans 9-11 without casting the elect off by God, cutting them off to death by God. Your intepretation of Romans 11:15 is impossible to harmonize with the langauge of that verse - Impossible IF one is HONEST with the words and argument Paul is putting forth.

    The argument he puts forth is the grandeur that the cutting off of "them" for the sake of reconciling the world will be even more grand if what is cast away is received and what has been cut off to death is brought back to life.

    Your interpretation denies his very argument as you have what shall be received something different than what was cast away and you have something different than what was cut off to death brought back to life.

    You interpretation makes Paul's argument foolish, as you have him saying something is recieved that never was cast off and something is brought to life that never was cut off to death!

    On the other hand if you include the "remnant" in "them" that were cast away then you have God casting away some of his elect!

    My interpretation is the only one that can possibly fit and perfectly harmonize the whole context.

    "Them" refers to THE NATION OF ISRAEL AS A WHOLE in both instances.

    The only difference between the two "them" is the tense being used or TIME. The first "them" has been cast away, cut off to death and is so PRESENTLY and the nation as a whole NOW consists of NON-ELECT.

    The second "them" is FUTURE tense "shall" and THE NATION OF ISRAEL AS A WHOLE "shall" consist of ELECT at a specific time in the future that will not include Gentile elect but their specific time when they shall be "received" and shall be brought back to "life" and shall be "saved" is after "the fulness of the gentile" elect come in (v. 25) and AFTER the deliverer comes from Zion (v. 26) and AFTER the Deliver turns their UNGODLINESS from them by remitting them of their sins (v. 27) but PRESENTLY the NATION OF ISRAEL AS A WHOLE are "enemies of the gospel FOR YOUR SAKES" but in regard to that future time concerning the NATION OF ISRAEL AS A WHOLE they are "elect" and "beloved" (v. 28).
     
  14. savedbymercy

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    dw

    You indicted yourself by making the false claim that Spiritual Israel is made up of Abraham's children of the flesh. Spiritual Israel is Just that, Spiritual Israel, Abraham's Spiritual Seed Gal 3:29

    29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    Do you believe Paul here is Just speaking to ethnic jews as belonging to Christ and are Abraham's seed ?
     
  15. Dr. Walter

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    Desperate aren't you? On my thread I made that statement in the context of Romans 9:3 and Paul's words "my brethren.....my kinsmen ACCORDING TO THE FLESH" and I said that this was a GENERAL description of ETHNIC ISRAEL inclusive of all Jews whether elect or non-elect. I still stand by that statement and I think you are foolish to deny Paul's words here include all ethnic Jews regardless of their salvation condition.

    However, to take this statement and accuse my interpretation of "spiritual" Israel of consisting of non-elect is a lie and you know it.





    God promised a "seed" to Abraham from two different sources. He promised a spiritual seed from the NATION of Israel of which Isaac and Jacob are examples of the "remnant" of Spiritual Israel in Romans 9. But he also promised a "seed" from the NATIONS of which all saved Gentiles are examples. The latter are SPIRITUAL JEWS and the former are SPIRITUAL GENTILES but "in Christ" there is neither JEW OR GENTILE but merely those born of the Spirit. The SPIRITUAL JEWS are "remnant" OF Spiritual Israel but they are not the future tense ELECT NATION OF SPIRITUAL ISRAEL AS A WHOLE that will be saved AFTER all Gentile promised seed "come in" and AFTER Christ comes from Zion and AFTER Christ turns the UNGODLINLESS from Jacob in Romans 9:25-28.
     
  16. savedbymercy

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    dw

    The ethnic jews of the election of Grace are who Paul means. If they are not of the election, then He knows they are not the Children of God. Rom 9:8

    8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

    The remnant of the election of grace in ethnic Israel are the only ones the Promises belonged to in Rom 9:3-5

    3For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

    4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

    5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

    The election within the nation did obtain the promises, the rest ,which are the children of the flesh were blinded.

    Rom 11:7

    What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

    Now, if any[ethnic jew] still be of the Election of Grace, they will be converted as individuals, just as Gentiles will be who are of the Election of Grace.

    Other than that, an ethnic jew in and of itself, means nothing to God ! Rom 9:8

    8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

    Your error is that you make the fleshly seed of Abraham, to be all the children of Promise or Spiritual Israel, and thats a lie.

    And you failed to address a question.

    You indicted yourself by making the false claim that Spiritual Israel is made up of Abraham's children of the flesh. Spiritual Israel is Just that, Spiritual Israel, Abraham's Spiritual Seed Gal 3:29

    29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    Do you believe Paul here is Just speaking to ethnic jews as belonging to Christ and are Abraham's seed ?
     
    #16 savedbymercy, Sep 18, 2011
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  17. Dr. Walter

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    First, I did not say that the description in Romans 9:3 is that of "Spiritual" Israel - YOU FALSELY ASSUMED THAT

    Second, I have already presented contextual evidence that your interpetation of Romans 9:3 is not simply wrong but stupid!

    Stupid, because you have Paul wishing himself to hell for THE ELECT who are not going to hell! That is attributing to Paul pure stupidity!

    But that is exactly the position you must take when you restrict the description in Romans 9:3 to the "ELECT" remnant!

    Paul's description is Romans 9:3 is not for "Spiritual" Israel (as you demand) or for Lost non-elect Israel (as you charge me) but for ETHNIC ISRAEL in general because both elect and non-elect Jews are still Jews "according to the flesh" and it is stupid to deny that and claim that Paul is wishing himself to hell for the Elect whom He fully well knows not one will go to hell!

    However, that is the stupidity your interpretation attributes to Paul.




     
  18. savedbymercy

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    dw

    Who said you did ?
     
  19. savedbymercy

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    dw

    I did not ask you that. Do you believe Abraham's seed in Gal 3:29 is restricted to only ethnic jews ? And if you concede that the seed of Abraham in Gal 3:29 is comprised of Gentiles, then are these Gentiles the seed of Abraham Naturally or Spiritually..
     
    #19 savedbymercy, Sep 18, 2011
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  20. Dr. Walter

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    These are your words:

    You indicted yourself by making the false claim that Spiritual Israel is made up of Abraham's children of the flesh. - SBG

    If you are not referring to my comments on Romans 9:3 then you produce my statement that YOU claim I made such a statement as it is YOU that MAKE THIS CHARGE?? Prove I said it or apoligze for falsely charging me!
     

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