A closer look at "baptizo"

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by evangelist-7, May 30, 2012.

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  1. evangelist-7

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    Baptizo
     to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
     to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe
     to overwhelm


    “Before the emergence of the holiness movement in the mid 19th century and Pentecostalism in the early 20th century,
    most denominations believed that Christians received the baptism with the Holy Spirit either upon conversion and regeneration or through rites of Christian initiation. Since the growth and spread of Pentecostal and charismatic churches, however, the belief that the baptism with the Holy Spirit is an experience distinct from regeneration has come into increasing prominence.” … From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism_with_the_Holy_Spirit

    When the Holy Spirit comes UPON you, it’s like He envelopes, surrounds, overwhelms you.
    It’s like you are immersed in the Holy Spirit. Here are 2 passages describing it:

    “… you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.
    … you shall receive (spiritual) power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you;
    and you shall be witnesses to Me … to the end of the earth.” (Acts 1:5,8)

    “… the Holy Spirit fell upon them (the Gentiles), as upon us (the Jews) at the beginning.
    Then I remember the word of the Lord, how He said,
    ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
    … God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ” (Acts 11:15-17)

    This “gift” of Holy Spirit baptism is not salvation … it is a special anointing after salvation.

    The above is much different than when one is born-again at the moment of salvation
    … when the Holy Spirit ENTERS you and remains INSIDE you:
    “And I (Jesus) will pray (to) the Father, and He will give you another Helper,
    that He may abide with you forever -- the Spirit of truth
    … you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.” (John 14:16-17)

    The Holy Spirit is INSIDE born-again Christians:
    John 14:17, Romans 8:11, 1 Corinthians 3:16, Galatians 4:6, 2 Timothy 1:14, 1 John 3:24, 1 John 4:12-16.
    .
     
  2. Moriah

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    The Pentecostal religion has false doctrines, for one thing, they believe in false speaking in tongues.
    Are you talking about when the Holy Spirit comes to indwell in the believer? If yes, where do you get the Holy Spirit envelopes, surrounds, and overwhelms you?


    I believe it is as we are immersed, immersed from the inside with the Holy Spirit.

    Notice how the scriptures say the Holy Spirit CAME ON them.
    However, notice that this coming on them is filling them.
    I am sorry if I misunderstand you, but to me, so far, it seems like you are trying to say there are more than one baptism of the Holy Spirit. There is only one baptism.

    Acts 10:44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.
    Acts 11:15 "As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning.

    Acts 2:4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

    Are you saying a person can be saved and not have the Holy Spirit?
    How could a living person be born again and not have the Holy Spirit?

    Jesus was speaking to his disciples…the Holy Spirit at that time was only living among them and not in them.
    The Holy Spirit lives inside born-again believers after Jesus ascended to the Father.
     
    #2 Moriah, May 30, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: May 30, 2012
  3. The Biblicist

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    The problem with this view is that the baptism commissioned unto the end of the world in the PRE-Pentecost commission (Mt. 28:19-20) is the kind that men administer to men. The baptism in the Spirit was administered by Christ (not the Holy Spirit) to a plural "you" (the congregation not individuals) in the Holy Spirit (not in the body of Christ) upon the day of Pentecost and then again to accredit Gentile believers as permissible for water baptism into the congregation at Jerusalem (Acts 10).

    Now there is "one baptism" (Eph. 4:5) and it is not baptism in the Spirit but the only baptism promised to be administered until the end of the age in making of disciples of Christ - Mt. 28:19-20.
     
  4. evangelist-7

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    Again, with this thread, I'm forced to ask you to read the OP carefully, and try to understand what is being said.
    .
     
  5. evangelist-7

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    Sure, the initial Holy Spirit baptisms were administered corporately to the 120.

    Your Acts 10 is saying:
    Since the Gentiles were baptized with the Holy Spirit like we were
    (with the confirmation of speaking in tongues),
    they were obviously saved and should be water baptized.
    “… the Holy Spirit fell upon all those (Gentiles) who heard the word
    the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
    For they (Peter and his companions) heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
    Then Peter asked, ‘Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized (in water)
    who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?’
    And he commanded them to be (water) baptized in the name of the Lord.“ (Acts 10:44-48)
    Also, I can show you that this "gift" refers to this Holy Spirit baptism.
    And it's the old story, isn't it: If this has to do with salvation ONLY, what's up with the tongues?
    And when the Holy Spirit comes "upon" or "on", it never has anything to do with salvation ONLY.


    Hebrews 6:1-2
    Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ,
    let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation
    of repentance from dead works and
    of faith toward God,
    of the doctrine of baptisms (plural),
    of laying on of hands,
    of resurrection of the dead, and
    of eternal judgment.

    As always, people have to decide whether or not to receive spiritual Truth.
    Fortunately for you, this has nothing to do with receiving salvation or rejecting it.

    .
     
    #5 evangelist-7, May 31, 2012
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  6. evangelist-7

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    The Scripture PASSAGES below explain the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
    And the important DETAILS in each passage are shown in the chart below.
    Please notice how these details are so inter-connected (linked together) in the chart.
    Note: all of the details of an event are seldom recorded every time the event occurs.


    1 Luke 24:49 ------ 8 Acts 8:14-19
    2 Acts 1:4-8 ------ 9 Acts 9:17-18
    3 Acts 2:1-4 ----- 10 Romans 15:19
    4 Acts 2:33-39 --- 11 Acts 10:44-48
    5 Acts 4:8-16 ---- 12 Acts 11:15-17
    6 Acts 4:31 ------ 13 Acts 14:3
    7 Acts 5:12-16 ----14 Acts 19:5-6

    ------------------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14

    the Promise --------Y-Y---Y-------------------------
    baptism with HS ------Y-------------Y--------Y-----Y
    the gift -----------------Y---------------Y--Y------
    upon ---------------Y Y Y---------Y-------Y--Y-----Y
    laying on of hands ---------------Y-Y-----------Y--Y
    filled with HS ---------Y---Y-Y-----Y---------------
    received HS ----------------------Y-------Y---------
    speaking tongues -------Y-----------------Y--------Y
    power --------------Y-Y-----------Y----Y------------
    boldness -------------------Y-Y-----------------Y---
    miracles -------------------Y---Y---Y--Y--------Y---

    .
     
  7. The Biblicist

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    Peter characterizes what happened at the house of Corneilius as something unprecedented as the nearest reference point such a thing occurred was "AT the beginning" (Acts 11:15-16) or day of Pentecost. He pointedly says it is the baptism in the Spirit predicted by John.

    If this had been the normal Christian experience he would never have said "AT the beginning" for his nearest reference point but "SINCE the beginning."


    Yes, plural baptisms. There is the metaphorical baptism of suffering but that is not the baptism in the Great Commission. There is the metaphorical baptism in the Spirit but that is not the baptism in the Great Commission nor a continuous one as Peter's nearest reference point was "AT Pentecost" rather than "SINCE Pentecost" as your interpretation would demand - it was a fulfilled prophesy "not many days hence" (Acts 1:5) on Pentecost and only repeated to publicly accredit the Gentiles as church membership materials (Acts 10) as this baptism was the common one time only shikinah glory that occurred at the beginning with the building of every new house of God (Ex. 40; 2 kings 7:1-3; Acts 2:1-3).

    Also note the SINGULAR "doctrine." They are plural "baptims" but are a singular doctrine.

    1. The baptism in the Spirit publicly identified and accredited the new house of God which occurred once "at the beginning" with every new house of God.

    2. The baptism in water publicly identifed beleivers with this house of God.

    3. The baptism in suffering publicly identified with the doctrine and practices of the New house of God as "the pillar and ground of the truth" - 1 Tim. 3:15



    You think much to highly of yourself and your interpretations.
     
    #7 The Biblicist, May 31, 2012
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  8. Yeshua1

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    the holy spirit comes into. indwelling, dsealing all Chrsitians when they place faith in jesus and get saved, NOT thru ANY rites/sacraments!

    And ALL of us are indwelt by Him, but up to us daily to be FILLED up by him!
     
  9. Yeshua1

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    Acts does NOT show the normitive way the Lord acts today as regards to the person and work of the Holy spirit for today...


    Since ALL christians are indwelt by him when saved by God, and NO second/further Act of Him needed today, as we have ALL means by being infilled by him to do the will and work of God!
     
  10. evangelist-7

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    biblicist,

    How many of the many millions around the world who have this baptism have thou asked about these things?

    Meanwhile, art thou formulating a wonderful intellectual response to "the linkage of truth" chart?
    .
     
  11. evangelist-7

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    Gee, it's swell to have opinions and voice them on forums, isn't it?
    But, do you have any Scriptures to back up your opinions?

    Since I'm a merciful guy ...
    I'll spare you from the embarrassing question I put to da biblicist re: asking the many millions about this baptism.

    I present this information to those who can hear spiritual Truth from the Lord. Good Luck!

    .
     
    #11 evangelist-7, May 31, 2012
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  12. Moriah

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    Please try to be more considerate to people who are trying to understand what you write. Find something I said to reply to me about and do not reply with your short, obviously rude advice.

    I must tell you, that you are wrong in saying that there are different types of baptism of the Holy Spirit. You try to use the words “came on them” to support your false ideas. However, in Acts 2:4 we are told that those to whom the Holy Spirit came on, they were “filled with the Holy Spirit.”
     
  13. Moriah

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    From the way you come off, I have my opinion on whether or not you have the Holy Spirit. Can you guess what it might be?

    No wonder you have the questions about the Holy Spirit that you do.
     
  14. Yeshua1

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    ALL christians have been baptised by same Spirit, as he seals them and places them spiritually within Body of Christ...

    what is this OTHER one that you speak of here?
     
  15. evangelist-7

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    Yes, of course, you speak of ...

    Baptism into the church (salvation) --- the Holy Spirit is the baptiser
    This does NOT refer to a phony salvation, which has always been quite prevalent,
    i.e. merely an intellectual belief or conversion of one’s thinking.
    But this refers to being “born again (from above)” with the Holy Spirit entering the person.
    “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body (the church)
    … and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.” (1 Corinthians 12:13)

    When a person becomes born-again, the Holy Spirit takes up permanent residence INSIDE the believer …
    John 14:16-23; Romans 8:11; 1 Corinthians 3:16; Galatians 4:6; 2 Timothy 1:14; 1 John 3:24; 1 John 4:12-16.

    As to your question, would I be offending you, if I asked to read and understand the OP ... and then get back to me?
    Because I just simply cannot keep repeating the same information in every post.
    .
     
    #15 evangelist-7, May 31, 2012
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  16. The Biblicist

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    You are confusing many things.

    First, there is a public administration change in the kingdom of God and thus a transferral of the keys of the kingdom from the Jewish house of God to the new house of God (Mt. 16:19;18:17-18; 21:43; Heb. 9:1,etc.). God is setting up a new covenant administration in His kingdom. This involves a public accreditation of a new house of God (1 Tim. 3:15) with new qualified ministry (1 Tim. 3:1-13) with new ordinances (Heb. 9:1)

    Second, the promise of the Spirit covers a wider territory than you imagine. It includes a special promise to the apostolic office and the completion of the Biblical canon and "sign" gifts that verify their work and office (2 Cor. 12:12) during the period the New Testament canon is being completed.

    Third, the promise of the Spirit takes in a change of sphere of the redemptive program of God - from primarily a Jewish sphere to a Gentile sphere - out of which God is calling a people - Mt. 28:19; Acts 1:8; Rom. 11.

    Fourth, you don't even address the Baptism in the Spirit correctly.

    1. The Administrator is Christ not the Holy Spirit
    2. The element is the Spirit not Christ or the body of Christ.
    3. The subject are always a plural group of water baptized beleivers.

    Fifth, you don't consider the larger picture of a common salvation, with a common gospel before and after Pentecost (Heb. 4:2; Acts 10:43; 26:22-23; Rom. 8:9) which denies that anyone can be saved apart from the indwelling of the Spirit either before or after Pentecost - Rom. 8:9.
     
    #16 The Biblicist, May 31, 2012
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  17. evangelist-7

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    I have to ignore all of the surrounding garbage, and just consider these points.

    Where have I, or any of my 14 chart verses, said:
    1. The Administrator is the Holy Spirit
    2. The element is Christ or the body of Christ

    I don't mind working with you, if you're the least bit open to learning new spiritual Truth.

    .
     
  18. The Biblicist

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    "batism WITH the Holy Spirit" is how you speak of it. The Greek preposition is "en" and the term "baptizo" is an immersion. It is not a baptism "with" the Spirit but "in" the Spirit just as it is baptism "in" water not "with" water. Those are pedobaptism terms and do not righly reflect the Greek preposition in its context.

    You don't have any "new" spiritual truth but an old heresy that most Pentecostals accept in part or whole.

    BTW the "garbage" you ignore is to your own peril of correctly understanding the TRANSITION between the Old and New Covenant public administrations.
     
  19. The Biblicist

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    Your attempting to tie all the above scripture together in order to define the baptism in the Holy Spirit based on a lot of assumptions that are simply wrong.

    What you are failing to see is the broader picture. There is a TRANSITION occuring beginning with the ministry of John the Baptist and concluding with the day of Pentecost that has some temporal continuing consequences.

    John was sent to "prepare a people made ready for the Lord" - Lk. 1:17

    Jesus took the material prepared by John and built the New house of God or the New Testament congregation.

    This New Testament congregation is the new "house of God" designated for public worship where a qualified ministry and qualified ordinances replace the former house of God and its qualified ministry and ordinances (1 Tim. 3:1-13).

    With the building of every new "house of God" there was what the Jews called the "dedication service" where God publicly accredited it by an outward manifestation of shikinah glory that immersed and filled the entire new house:

    1. The Tabernacle:

    Ex. 40:34 ¶ Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.


    2. The Temple of Solomon:

    2 Chron. 7:11 ¶ Now when Solomon had made an end of praying, the fire came down from heaven, and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices; and the glory of the LORD filled the house.
    2 And the priests could not enter into the house of the LORD, because the glory of the LORD had filled the LORD’S house.
    3 And when all the children of Israel saw how the fire came down, and the glory of the LORD upon the house, they bowed themselves with their faces to the ground upon the pavement, and worshipped, and praised the LORD, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever.


    3. The New Testament Congregation:


    Acts 2:1 ¶ And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
    2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
    3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.


    In the book of Matthew there is a transition of administrative authority taken from the Jews and the Jewish house of God (Mt. 16:19; 18:17-18; 21:43; 24:37) with the rending of the veil in the holy place signifying the presence of God has left that house of God and then taking up residence in the new house of God in Acts 2:1.

    Hence, there is this TRANSITION of administrative government from one house of God to another "house of God."

    The "Promise of the Spirit" includes the baptism in the Spirit but much more. It includes the promise of a New Covenant Scriptures completed under the supervision of the apostolic office (Isa. 8:16-18; Jn. 16:13; 2 Thes. 2:15; 2 Pet. 3:15-17; 2 Tim. 3:15-16).

    There are "signs" that confirm the apostolic office (2 Cor. 12:12). Take note that in the first five chapters of the book of Acts no one did signs miracles or wonders but the apostles - no one! In Acts 6 only after the apostles laid hands upon the 7 deacons do we read of any others doing signs and wonders. This Apostolic "sign" and ability was what Simon tried to buy:

    Acts 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
    19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.


    This is how Timothy received such ability through the laying on of apostolic hands (2 Tim. 1:8). This is what Paul wanted to do for the churches in Rome (Rom. 1:11) as there were no sign gifts listed among those at Rome (Rom. 12:7-11).

    You are confusing things that should not be confused because the "promise of the Spirit" has reference to diverse things that relate only to the new house of God and its mission. The only relevance it has to salvation of individuals is to the new mission of God's new house which is no longer restricted to JEWISHISM but to the whole "world" (Mt. 28:19; Acts 1:8; Rom. 11).

    Paul when writing the congregation at Corinth told them that the Holy Spirit indwells two different types of temples not made with hands. The first one he mentions is the singular "temple" or church institution (1 Cor. 3:16) and the second "temple" is the individual child of God (1 Cor. 6:17). The baptism in the Spirit has to do with the former and not with the latter as the individual believer has always been indwelt and regenerated by the Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:9). Study Romans 8:8-9 and you will see that Paul classifies all human beings into only TWO classifications (1) those in the flesh; (2) those in the Spirit and those in the Spirit are indwelt by the Spirit of God or they are NONE OF HIS.

    On the other hand, your theory of the baptism "with" the Spirit demands another kind of salvation after Pentecost than before Pentecost which the Scriptures deny (Acts 10:43; 26:22-23; Heb. 4:2; Rom. 8:9).
     
  20. evangelist-7

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    John the Baptist tells us that Jesus is the One who baptizes with the Holy Spirit:
    “He (Jesus) will baptize you WITH the Holy Spirit and fire.” (Matthew 3:11).
    Also see similar wording in the other gospels (Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, John 1:33).

    Re: "with" ... you need to complain to all of the translators, not to me.
    Methinks they were/are not Pentecostals or Charismatics.

    "With" is correctly in context re: this baptism ... because the Holy Spirit comes UPON people.
    Just look at the definition of "baptizo" in the OP. (Do you know what an OP is?)

    Whatever happened to your answers to my questions about your 2 ridiculous points in post #17?
    .

     
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