A couple of odd statements about faith.

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Allan, Sep 20, 2007.

  1. Allan

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    I have been thinking about some passages of scripture regarding faith and Jesus statements and responces to it at times. (it is something I was thinking about due to some other debate threads)

    Like these of the same instance :
    IF faith is something that God gives to men, then why was Jesus amazed that this Gentile had faith?
    And why did He make such a declaration about his faith being so great that none in Israel could compare to the faith he dispayed?
    NOTE: This included the disciples and specifically the 12 (or 11).

    Not to mention all the times Jesus states "oh ye of little faith".

    Or in these times having no faith.

    Why would Jesus be amazed for their unbeleif if beleif is given by the Father?
    What was there to be amazed about regarding it?
    They had faith, didn't they?

    And then this verse has ALWAYS stuck with me:
    How could He not find faith, if it is imparted to us by the Father?
    But if it is speaking of actionable faith, I still must inquire of those believers, why is their faith 'not' actionable if it is truely faith.

    This is not including other statements like; thy faith hath saved thee, thy faith hath healed thee, thy faith hath made the whole..et..

    I am kinda more or less spit-balling and curious .
    And no I'm not trying to disprove anything but would like some input.
    What do ya all think?
     
    #1 Allan, Sep 20, 2007
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  2. Sopranette

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    I think "marvel" has a different connotation in this context than just suprise. Marvel can also mean a mixture of admiration, speculation, curiosity and astonishment.

    love,

    Sopranette
     
    #2 Sopranette, Sep 20, 2007
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  3. belvedere

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    Good questions, Allan, and good reply, Sopranette. Unfortunately, I don't have anything to add, except maybe a little confusion! :laugh: The thing that stood out to me, about the scriptures you provided, was: "Jesus is God - how could He marvel at ANYTHING?!?" Sopranette, your reply gives me a different (and better) way to look at it, but my mind is still left questioning the issue.
     
  4. Allan

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    Thank you, and I agree very thoughtful.

    The other main word for it is 'Wonder' or amazement.

    Albeit 'admiration' would be a good contextual fit as well.

    Admiration does have the connotation of wonder or astonishment associated with it as well but it is mixed with a sense of pleasure. So it would be better said that Jesus was pleasantly surprized (in that meaning) rather than just amazed.

    However, I think the contrast is why the translaters saw fit to use mavelled or amazed, since it stands in stark opposition to the faith found in Israel. So I could use either or, but I think I would still side (though only slightly) with amazed. :)
     
  5. belvedere

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    Just a thought on Like 18:8: I'm guessing that Jesus isn't speaking of "saving faith", or else He would be asking if there will be ANY saved people on the earth.

    I don't know if this sheds any light on the issue for you, but it does for me. The HCSB says "...will He find that faith on earth?" There is a footnote for "that faith": Or faith, or that kind of faith, or any faith, or the faith, or faithfulness; the faith that persists in prayer for God's vindication.
     
  6. Allan

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    Very true, but none of these specifically deal with saving faith but faith in general.
    Yet even THAT faith must be Godly Faith that it would be honored by God, right?

    Saving faith is no different in nature than another biblical faith regarding action to other circumstances/situations and Gods' promises.
    They all stem from the same sourse, do they not?

    Is not our faithfulness determined by our 'faith'?

    Glad to see you this morning brother. :)
     
    #6 Allan, Sep 20, 2007
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  7. Allan

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    Just a quick question, brother.

    Where did I state the embold above?
     
  8. Joe

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    I agree. Yet, I don't know exactly what faith is. Something that came to mind is that Satan had faith in God, yet I wouldn't deem him faithful.

    Edited to add: It's probably normal to loose faith since it happened to the disciples while in the boat with Jesus.


    "And suddenly a great tempest arose on the sea, so that the boat was covered by the waves. But He was asleep. The his disciples came to Him and awake Him saying, "Lord, save us! We are perishing." (Matthew 8:24,25)\

    "O you of little faith, why did you doubt?" (Matthew 14:31

    Joe
     
    #8 Joe, Sep 20, 2007
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  9. EdSutton

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    Allan, there are a couple of assumptions and things you mentioned in the OP that I believe are incorrect. The first is the idea that "faith is something God "gives" to us. The 'source' and definition of believe/faith is found here, in thse two passages, IMO, varied theological constructs notwithstanding. (Emphases mine.)
    Rom. 10:17 tells whence faith comes; Heb. 11:1 defines what faith is.
    [​IMG] Don't you know that "spit-balling" is 'illegal'??? Both in school and in baseball? Ask any teacher! And just ask Gaylord Perry! As a professional baseball pitcher, and member of the Baseball Hall of Fame, and Cy Young winner in both the American and National Leagues who won 314 career games and struck out 3534 players, the third highest total in baseball history, when he retired, he could tell you that spitballs are illegal. Just ask him. And at the same time, ask his catchers why they waterproofed their catcher's mitts and wore water resistant uniforms [​IMG] whenever Gaylord pitched, as well?? :laugh: :laugh:

    Ed
     
    #9 EdSutton, Sep 20, 2007
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  10. 4boys4joys

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    I agree with you. :thumbs: :laugh:
     
  11. theBryan

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    I'm of the persuasion that Faith is a gift from God; Heb. 12:2, Rom. 12:3, Eph, 2:8.

    The one thing not mentioned yet in regards to the mention of Christ "marveling" is that while Jesus is God he was also fully man. The "man" part of His nature could still be amazed, surprised or whatever other emotion a revelation might elicit.

    Bryan
     
  12. Allan

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    Ed,
    That is the reason the OP states "IF" faith is a gift from God..."THEN why does".,..

    Of course spit balling is wrong, but you have to be caught doing it to get into trouble. :thumbs: And I have only made the statement I am thus far :laugh:
     
  13. Allan

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    I think I might be going into semantics here but I disagree that we can loose 'faith'.

    The reason is because faith isn't something that is mysterious or insubstantial but something we can know that we have or do not have in certain areas.

    Faith is not what we know only but that which is actionable according to what we know. If we do not act upon what we know/believe then we in truth do not believe it and therefore have no faith in THAT area.

    Example: Have you ever lost the faith that Christ could saved you or that He can still save others even now? If not, why have you not lost faith in that truth?
    Most likely it is because it is truth and therefore you base your life upon that truth as it has been revealed to you through the Holy Spirit.
    Faith is acting in accordance with that which you believe. If you do not act in accordance with what you claim to believe can it truly be called faith?

    Disciples lost 'faith' or did not believe NOT because it is a common thing for believers, but that they did not truly know who Christ was yet, therefore their so called belief was always shown to be 'little' or not at all (remember - it was a Gentile whom Christ stated had greater faith than Israel). Yet do we ever see this same portrail of the disciples AFTER Christ's resurrection and explaining all things to them. Nope, not once. In fact, before they fled His side and then afterwards they stood their ground till death.

    As an example regarding the disciples; They did not fully understand (therefore truly believe) who Jesus said He was nor what He was going to do (according to that which Jesus told them - not their preconcieved ideas). They did not believe Jesus being the Messiah would (or maybe should in their eyes) die, nor that after He died He would or could rise again. Jesus upbraided them for their unbelief and hard hearts. Look below:
    Faith without works is dead - as the Apostle James puts it. Or it could be better said that where there is faith there is an acting upon that belief. WHere there in no action upon that belief it can not truly be called a belief but an opinion :)


    Truth that is believed becomes a faith that is unmovable.
     
    #13 Allan, Sep 20, 2007
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  14. charles_creech78

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    That one scripture comes to my mind when he said bless are they that have not seen but still believe. I believe this is what real faith is. He must of marveled but he sure did know there was no greater faith in Israel. What did Jesus marvel at? Go read the scripture.
     
    #14 charles_creech78, Sep 20, 2007
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  15. Allan

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    Why would Christ 'marvel' at faith, seeing that it is His Father which is supposed give it to those who would follow Christ?

    He did not marvel at the disciples when they acted in faith, yet with this Gentile Christ "Turned to His followers" and stated that He has not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

    Talk about a rebuke to those Jews who were following Christ, not to mention the other Jews in contention WITH Christ to say a Gentile had more faith than they did.

    This is what I am refering to. Jesus states about faith in many places that His followers, more specifically His disciples, have only little faith, no faith, or no great faith. So if God gives man faith, how could His disciples have 'no faith' or 'little faith' since God gives them faith. Did God mess up on His measuring out faith to each man? Of course Not!

    Jesus doesn't tell them they aren't using the faith God gave them to it's fullest measure, but alsway equates it as 'their faith' or 'your faith' and that is why it was either lacking or not there at all. Otherwise the faith God seems to give can be denied to be used or used ineffectively in our lives. That would make no sense.

    Faith is not a compulsion to act due to faith but a decision to act due to a believed truth establishing faith.
     
  16. Allan

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    True. Because seeing is not believing. :)

    It is truth that is to be believed not what we see specifically.

    Faith is either a noun ; Christ is our faith (encompassing Himself, His work, and His promises).
    Faith is also a verb ; Living or acting in accordance with the truths we claim to believe.
    ....which goes back to the Noun.

    This is why faith (our action upon truth) is the substance of the things we are hoping (expecting) for. It (the action of our faith) is the evidence (submittable facts or truth) of things not seen (but will they remain unseen - no, because they are hidden until we prove them by our action in faith to be real :) )

    That is why this is more than just being about Jesus marvelling at the Gentile's faith but all the other things I mention in the OP.
     
    #16 Allan, Sep 20, 2007
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  17. belvedere

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    OK, you got me. Sounds familiar, but I can pin it down. Please refresh my (can't believe it's failing and I'm only 32) memory.
     
  18. Allan

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    LOL. Actaully I remember writting something to that effect at first but I edited my OP at 5:30 something in the morning shortly after I gave it a quick read.
    Was you up at 5:30 reading it?
    Cause you would be much faster reader than I am. :laugh:
     
  19. reformedbeliever

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    I think there is a difference between saving faith and faith produced through our actions etc. Either that, or you could loose saving faith. I don't think so. Remember, Jesus was man also. There are instances in the Bible where He exercised His omniscience, and instances where he acted as if He didn't know. Do you think that may have been for those around Him? Both His omniscience and his human nature are shown, don't you agree Allan? Good morning brother. I'm cooking a brisket and my famous incredible beef and beans, along with cole slaw and potato salad. The smoker is about ready.... so I'll "see" you in a bit. :wavey:
     
  20. Allan

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    Good morning to you to brother!
    I'm not so sure, to be honest.
    I find no distinction in scripture given, that I'm aware of.

    Yet, saving faith is no different in nature than another biblical faith regarding circumstances, situations, and Gods' promises.
    They all stem from the same sourse, do they not?

    Or - Does God give us faith to get saved but we use our own faith to walk daily with Lord??

    About loosing faith, et. - I deal with alot of this in Post #13.


    BTW - That was totally wrong and bording on sinful to talk about Briskett, and beef and beans with no way of me crashing the party. :laugh:
     

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