A False Teaching on Christ’s Satisfaction Exposed

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Protestant, Jul 9, 2015.

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  1. Protestant

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    On 7/1/15 Pastor DHK made the following remark:

    Though there are several grievous errors in this statement I will first concentrate on the question as to who receives the payment for our sin.

    DHK stated, “If I receive his payment I will not go to Hell.”

    Scripture teaches sin is a debt which no man can pay.

    The Parable of the servant who owed the King ten thousand talents is one such example. (Matt. 18:23-35)

    The Parable of the creditor who had two debtors is yet another. (Luke 7:41-43)

    The Lord’s Prayer expresses this same truth:

    Forgive us our debts. (Matt. 6:12 KJV)

    Forgive us our sins. (Luke 11:4 KJV)

    Christ paid our sin debt with His holy, pure, innocent blood:

    He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification. (Romans 4:25 NIV)

    He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. (1Peter 2:24 ESV)

    As our Surety Christ guaranteed full payment of our sin debt:

    By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. (Heb. 7:22 KJV)

    This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant. (ESV)

    To whom was Christ’s sin payment made?

    It was not made to sinners as DHK infers when he stated, “If I receive his payment I will not go to Hell.”

    Payment was made by the Son to the Father.

    It was the eternal will of God that Jesus satisfy His holy justice by paying the price of our redemption:

    Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. (Heb. 10:7 KJV)

    Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
    19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
    20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you
    (1 Peter 1:18-20 KJV)

    Christ satisfied/propitiated divine justice, thereby paying our entire sin debt owed God on our behalf:

    Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
    25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood,
    (Romans 3:24-25 KJV)

    Therefore, it is not a question of our receiving payment or not, as DHK would teach.

    Payment was made in full by the Son and accepted in full by the Father.

    The plan of salvation was executed without our counsel or permission.

    God doesn’t need the sinner’s permission before He is able to apply the saving graces purchased by Christ.

    Nor does God need your permission to give you the gift of eternal life in Christ Jesus.

    He didn’t need your permission to bring about your first carnal birth; neither does He need your permission to bring about your second spiritual birth.

    Is God evil for freely and sovereignly giving some men necessary saving graces which they do not deserve?

    Is Jesus evil for paying the full sin debt of some men and not all men?

    Does God owe the gift of eternal life to all men?

    Is God the debtor to man in any way, shape or form?

    NEXT: For whom was our sin debt paid?
     
  2. DHK

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    I am not going to deal with parables here. Parables are meant to illustrate doctrine already taught. The do not teach doctrine in and of themselves. Since your doctrine is not taught in the Bible (IMO), these parables will not illustrate it, therefore you must find another way.
    This is written to his disciples, better called "the disciples prayer."
    It is similar to 1John 1:9. A believer is to take his sin to the Lord and confess it, and repent of it. That is what Jesus was teaching his disciples to do. It has nothing to do with salvation or the atonement.

    "our" It could just as well mean the delivered for the sins of the whole world. There is nothing preventing that meaning. He died for you; for me; for the church at Rome; for all the people of the world. All are true.

    By his wounds all who believe in him are healed, thus "you" refers to the believers that Peter is writing to.

    Yes, of course he was. That was the purpose of the book of Hebrews--to show that Christ is better than what the OT had to offer: better worship, better priest, better priesthood, better sacrifice, etc.
    And so? Did I say "to whom was Christ's sin payment made"? No. You are assuming facts not in existence. It is dishonest.
    Christ made the payment to satisfy the demands of the Father (1John 2:2).
    Once propitiation was made, not only for us, but for the sins of the whole world, then that great offer of salvation is given--given to all who will believe.

    Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
    --It is not election/predestination that damns a person, but according to Scripture it is "believing not" that damns a person. So the Scripture declares.
    No argument. 1John 2:2

    You were doing good until you got to this last statement, a false conclusion.
    You should have included:

    1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
    --The payment was made to God the Father on behalf of the sins of all those of the whole world. Those who receive it shall have eternal life; those who do not believe shall receive eternal damnation.

    Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
    --You do believe this scripture don't you? It is not a question of what DHK teaches but rather what the Bible says!

    God demands that the sinner accept the gift.
    Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
    --Faith is necessary. We do believe in sola fide don't we? Or was that thrown out the window?

    God has never forced salvation on anyone. He is a loving God.

    Again, he doesn't impose salvation on anyone. What monstrous thought is this--that God would impose salvation on some and force damnation on others!

    God commands man: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
    God commands man to love others, to be loving, but the Calvinist believes that God does not love man. What a contradiction. God goes against his own nature as demonstrated in his own commands--man made in his image.

    Jesus paid the full debt of all men. That gift must be accepted in order to be efficacious.
    God doesn't owe anything to any man.
    He is merciful and gracious. He keeps his promises.
     
  3. Protestant

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    And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. ​
    [/I
    In my previous post I proved Christ’s payment for our sin debt was paid, in full, to the Father.

    Sinners were in no way involved in this transaction.

    Nor could they be.

    The terms of this Covenant of Grace between the Father and the Son were made in eternity, before creation took place.

    For this reason Christ is called the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. (Rev. 13:8)

    The Father had an eternal purpose in sending His Son to be the satisfaction for our sin debt: He desired to gather to Himself a people for His name, whereby He would be their God and they would be His people. (Hebrews 8:10)

    Essential to a right understanding of the living God is the divine truth that nothing or no one can obstruct or defeat any purpose which God has purposed. (Isaiah 46:10; Daniel 4:35; Matt.28:18)

    Those whom God purposes to save will be saved.

    The question which we now address concerns the identity of those for whom Christ died, thereby paying, in full, their sin debt owed the Father.

    Our Pelagian/Arminian friends would have us believe Christ paid the sin debt for all mankind.

    This erroneous, God-dishonoring assertion can be refuted in several ways.

    First, let us examine the Parable of the servant who owed the King ten thousand talents. (Matt. 18:23ff.)

    On Judgment Day the King of Heaven and Earth will bring man to account for his every evil word, thought and deed.

    We all, like the servant who owed the King an exorbitant debt, have insufficient funds – aka insufficient righteousness – with which to pay our sin debt.

    The servant realized the seriousness of the situation. He was about to lose all that was dear to him. As a result, he begged the King to give him more time to pay, promising him full payment.

    Take note it was the will of the servant to pay what was owed.

    Also note the will of the servant was impotent to achieve its desired end.

    Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

    This teaching of Christ signifies several eternal spiritual truths:

    1. Men will be brought before Him to give an account of their lives.
    2. Many men are will be judged severely and righteously.
    3. No man is able to pay his sin debt to God.
    4. The will of man is impotent to execute a plan by which he can satisfy his sin debt.
    5. Man, of himself, has nothing to offer God for payment.
    6. The Lord God understands the extreme poverty of man who is bankrupt of any righteousness.
    7. The Lord God is under no obligation to forgive any man, let alone all men, their sin debt.
    8. According to His sovereign good pleasure, mercy and compassion, He has the power and authority to forgive men their sin debt as He wills.

    For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. (Romans 9:15)

    By comparing Scripture with Scripture, we soon discover God’s forgiveness is quite different from a human creditor’s forgiveness.

    The human creditor may forgive a man’s debt without dishonoring his human character.

    The forgiven debtor will praise and honor the human creditor for his kindness and charity.

    But the Divine Creditor cannot forgive the debtor as easily without doing irreparable harm to His majesty, holiness and justice.

    Due to the sinless propitiatory sacrifice of His Son who paid, in full, the sin debt of men, the Lord is now able to forgive them forever, never requiring any future payment from them.

    Forgiveness of sin debt is only through the efficacious shed blood of Christ.

    In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace (Eph. 1:7)

    Since Christ emphasized the importance whereby earthly truths reflect divine truths (John 3:12), we, too, must not disregard the earthly truths of creditor-debtor relations.

    Once a debt to a creditor is satisfied, the creditor has no legal right to pursue payment and/or a possible penalty in a court of law.

    That debtor is no longer legally bound to that creditor and is free from the penalty of non-payment. There was no default on the debt.

    By applying this self-evident truth to salvation – the central theme of the aforementioned Parable – we must conclude that those for whom Christ died, for whom full sin payment was made to and accepted by the Father, will never come into condemnation.

    Should some men come into condemnation we then are left to conclude that Christ did not pay the entire sin debt of some men, leaving them liable for eternal punishment.

    Scripture clearly states that many men, if not most, are doomed to the Lake of Fire. (Rev. 20:11-15)

    Therefore, it is impossible Christ paid for their sin debt, absolving them of their obligation.

    But our Pelagian and Arminian friends insist that Christ actually paid the entire sin debt of the entire human race.

    By so doing, they postulate the Father as an unjust Creditor/Judge who either dismisses the relevancy of Christ’s atonement or requires payment from the sinner, in addition to Christ’s payment.

    In either case, neither the Father nor the Son are given their due honor, praise and glory.

    Conclusion: Christ paid the full sin debt of those specifically given Him by the Father, the Elect chosen by the Father, the spiritual seed of Abraham, the children of promise.

    There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1)

    NEXT: The question of faith.
     
  4. Rippon

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    Romans 4:25:
    "He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification."

    Nonsense DHK.
    Your words are false. Jesus was given over because of our sins and raised up for the sake of our justification. Both are true :raised for our sins, and for the sake of our justification. You insist, due to your tradition that :"our" refers to each and every person who has and shall exist despite the many times you've been taken to the woodshed for that error-filled interpretation.

    Now, claiming that he died for the sins of everybody you also claim that he was raised to life for the justification for everyone? You claim everyone is justified? You teach this nonsense?


    No matter how many times you repeat a falsehood it is still a falsehood. Who, exactly claims that God "forces" salvation on anyone? O, that's right. You say so. You are untruthfully claiming that Calvinists teach that. It's a lie, we have always opposed that --but you are comfortable still ascribing that to us.

    When will it strike you that you need to be honest in your dealings with others? You need to represent the views of those you differ with --honestly. Do not put words and doctrines in their mouths --things they have never held. It is not a mark of integrity.
     
  5. DHK

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    Your foolish sarcasm is noted throughout this post.
    Is it?
    Romans 4:25:
    "He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification."
    --Were they justified before or after they heard the word of God?
    Justification came after, but they were still justified. It is "our" justification no matter at what time in their lives they were justified. You are simply reading into the passage a time element of your own choosing--one to fit your narrow scope of Calvinism.
    How shall I respond to this--that you are a heretic??
    You can stop there. I don't believe tradition. I study and believe the Bible.
    You study and believe Calvin. You have Calvin's philosophy and tradition. Don't falsely accuse me.
    So 1John 2:2 is a lie? That is your admission? "the sins of the whole world."

    You really ought to read the Bible. Have you ever read John 3:16?
    "that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
    --Are those words too difficult to understand?

    How about these:
    Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    Those that believe are justified. Simple enough.
    Calvinists ought to know.
    I didn't say this:

    Nor does God need your permission to give you the gift of eternal life in Christ Jesus.
    --That statement infers that salvation is imposed if not forced on the believer. In reality the person asks, calls upon, receives, "the gift of salvation."
    Maybe you should read what is said before boastfully and sarcastically entering into a conversation in which you are totally biased and contribute so little.
     
  6. Rippon

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    I am not saying or implying anything about a time element. I am saying that if you think the sins of everyone have been taken care of, then you must also think everyone has been justified. You can't split the verse up.

    Of course "our" is referencing the elect. Christ was delivered over to death for "our" sins and was raised to life for "our" justification.

    The pronoun focuses on a particular group; not humanity en masse.


    Only if you are a fool.
    You can deny it all you want --you follow tradition.
    You are acting the fool ...again.

    Typical tactic of DHK. Grow up. I made no mention of 1 John 2:2, so stop lying.

    But since you brought up that reference, that same author wrote this in the Gospel of John:

    "...Jesus would die for the Jewish nation, and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one." (11:51b-52)

    Christ died for the sins of his elect--for those from among the Jwes and from among the Gentiles --scattered children of God. He did not die for every individual person who has and shall live.

    The ones believing in him will not perish. That excludes the rest of humanity.
    I believe whole-heartedly in the above. But what is your point? You are not demonstrating anything that has to do with Romans 4:25 and your tradtional theory that Christ died for everyone head-for-head and that everyone --head-for-head is justified.
    You had said that "God has never forced salvation on anyone. He is a loving God."

    And I told you not to put words and doctrines into the mouths of those with whom you differ. It is dishonest to ply your trade in that manner.
     
    #6 Rippon, Jul 10, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 10, 2015
  7. DHK

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    Okay, but you (the Calvinist, that is) are the one that puts the great emphasis on election and predestination. Remember: Christ "slain before the foundation of the world."
    --The basis of our justification is His death. correct? And then His resurrection. But all of this was predetermined before the foundation of the world.
    "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world." (John 1:29).
    --John knew about this lamb to come. He would take away the sins of the world. By him all men (who believe) would be justified.

    Rom.4:25 cannot be taken out of its overall context which begins with Abraham.
    Abraham was justified by faith.
    Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
    --not by works, but by faith was he justified.

    Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
    --Justified by faith; he believed God. sola fide.

    Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
    5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
    --Faith is not a work, but opposed to works. It is faith that justifies the ungodly. All (in the world) who believe will be justified.

    Romans 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
    7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
    --David testifies how God justified him.

    His testimony continues:
    Romans 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
    8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
    --He is justified. The Lord will not impute sin to David because he has put faith in him.

    Explaining righteousness more fully, both for Jews and Gentiles, he comes back to Abraham:
    Romans 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
    21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
    --This is a great definition of faith--being fully persuaded that what God has promised God will do.

    Romans 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
    --Now this is not for Abraham only, but for us (Jews and Gentiles--David, et.al., all of history, all of mankind).
    Read through the entire chapter. The us is more than a few Roman believers and Paul. It is "us" as in the world, or all who, in the world, believes.
    You might call the elect, or even limit it to the elect at Rome.
    I say it is all who believe. In the end it means the same thing.
    Christ died for the sins of the whole world.
    Those who believe are those who are justified. This is the entire thrust of Romans 4. We are justified by faith.
    Made no mention of John 1:29 either, but I did. I also quoted most of the first half of Romans chapter four to give you more context. It is not wrong to use the Bible.

    Not every Jew was "of the elect," but you are right in that Jesus died for all of them. In the same way Jesus died for us all. Only those who believe will be saved. See John 3:16; Acts 10:43; Acts 16:30,31

    Abraham believed and was justified. God imputed righteousness unto him.
    The same held true with David.
    The ones that believe will be justified by God.

    Read the quote again. It inferred that God imposes salvation on man.
    That is the end result of predetermined Calvinism.

    "Nor does God need your permission to give you the gift of eternal life in Christ Jesus."
    --That statement infers that salvation is imposed if not forced on the believer. In reality the person asks, calls upon, receives, "the gift of salvation."
     
  8. Protestant

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    The Question of Faith

    Our Pelagian/Arminian friends would have us believe that “all men have faith; faith is innate,” as Pastor DHK has stated numerous times.

    From this they then extrapolate that though Christ paid in full the sin debt of all men who ever lived, He somehow did not pay for the very sin which keeps men under the eternal wrath of God: the sin of unbelief. (John 3:36)

    Imagine this. They would have us believe that the single most important requirement for salvation – faith in the person and work of Christ – its precious procurement Christ did not bother to pay.

    And why not?

    Because men do not need heavenly assistance in that area?

    They need not the blood of Christ shed for such an apparently ‘minor’ issue?

    “All men have faith,” they claim.

    “All men have the innate power to believe, should they so will,” is their mantra.

    Though the Lord God has gone to unimaginable and incomprehensible lengths to secure salvation for His people, not withholding His precious Son from experiencing unrelenting torment at the hands of wicked men, our adversaries conclude God has ‘wisely’ allowed men the freedom to come to faith in Christ by the natural use of their evil, vile, God-hating, sin-depraved wills.

    The efficacy of Christ’s cross work is left in the hands of the creature who is by nature at enmity with God.

    One who is also dead to God.

    ‘To man be the glory who puts his faith in Christ,’ is the obvious conclusion of such errant doctrine.

    Faith is a saving grace of which Christ is the purchaser, author and finisher.

    God, who is not willing any of His Elect should perish, was much too wise to allow His eternal purpose in Christ to fail.

    Adam failed. Israel failed. All men have fallen short of the glory of God and failed.

    Yet those damning biblical truths don't deter our naïve Pelagian/Arminian friends who cling to the false hope that somewhere men exist who can succeed where all others have failed.

    But our Lord is much too wise to place hope in the hopeless.

    So, in order to guarantee His Chosen would not fail, the Father and Son entered into the eternal Covenant of Grace, whereby the Son would be the guarantor of their sin debt, making payment with His sinless blood.

    Therefore it [justification] is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; (Romans 4:16)

    God has made certain that all the spiritual seed of Abraham, the children of promise, will never fail to achieve justification: He and he alone will give them and them alone the free grace of saving faith which Christ has purchased with His blood.

    Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us [the children of promise] with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ [who purchased them] (Eph.1:3)

    He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? (Romans 8:32)

    Faith is a spiritual blessing. It is one of the ‘all things freely given.’

    Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.(Eph.4:8)

    Faith is God’s gift to His Elect, who have nothing to offer God but filthy rags of righteousness.

    For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;(Phil.1:29)

    NEXT: The question of foreknowledge
     
  9. DHK

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    Why do you misrepresent and deny what we believe. We have told you that we believe Christ paid the sin debt of all. That is exactly what 1John 2:2 teaches. He made propitiation for all the sins of the world. That is clear enough.
    What is also clear is that salvation is a gift.
    For by grace are ye saved.
    For...ye are saved through faith.
    For salvation is the gift of God.
    For salvation is not of yourself.
    For salvation is not of works.
    For if salvation were of works then one could boast of it.
    Salvation is not what one can boast of.

    IOW, Salvation is a gift.
    Therefore salvation is to be received as a gift (John 1:12).
    It must either be received or rejected.

    Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
    Absurd! Christ is the author of our faith.
    No. And so they should. If I am right, you should put your faith in the words I tell you. That is, my promise to you ought to become the object of your faith. Faith is confidence and trust, something that everyone has and uses everyday. It is the object of faith that is important. What is referred to as "saving faith" is when one puts their faith in Christ; that is when Christ becomes the very object of their faith.
    Whether you want to admit or not, you put your faith and trust into the hands of the driver of every car you get into--your confidence your faith goes into that driver to keep you safe from destination A to destination B, and you hope that he will get you there "safely." When you arrive you will have been saved. He, being the object of your faith, was also the author and the finisher of it. You have no more need of it, because you have reached what you hoped for.
    Man was made in the image of God; in the image of God made he him.
    This statement is repeated many times throughout the Scripture. But you revel in calling God's plan evil.
    Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
    --Note them emphasis on "believe."
    --These are the words of Christ.
    The problem of the Calvinist is his view of the sovereignty of God. It leaves God too weak and lame so that he is not powerful enough to allow man to believe on God. God becomes the Great Puppeteer and all of mankind puppets. God is too weak to allow him to have his own choice so thinks the Calvinist. His hands are tied. He must therefore elect some to eternal life predestine the rest to eternal damnation. He lacks both power and love. It is a strange view of God that the Calvinist has.
    Dead means separated. A spiritually dead person is one who is separated from God and simply needs to be reconciled to God in order to have life. You also have a wrong definition of "dead" and thus a wrong definition of "Total Inability."
    Are you a Roman Catholic? I used to be.
    The above statement is not found in the Bible, but saying that faith is a grace is something you would hear in the RCC. Christ did not purchase faith. That is absurd. Where do you come across such error?

    But the Bible says God is not willing that ANY should perish. Why do you contradict the Word of God.

    That doesn't mean they are not made in his image.
    That doesn't mean God took away their power of choice.
    That doesn't mean they don't have the faith to believe.
    What damning truths??

    All who believe will be saved; justified. That was never in doubt. Justification is by faith. That is a statement found even in the OT. The just are those that believe by faith. You seem to look at things backwards. Stop trying to play God.

    He is speaking to believers.

    He freely "gives all things" to believers.

    Faith, as a spiritual gift, can only be given to believers. Otherwise it is innate.

    I trust that (if you are married) when you tell your wife, "I trust" you can make supper tonight, and then tell her "it will be a filthy rag though," that she will be thankful and understanding of your mixed up and confused theology.
     
  10. Rebel

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    So, anyone who does not believe the false doctrine of Calvinism is a Pelagian, huh? That's an old tactic. Couldn't you come up with a false charge that is newer and more original?
     
  11. Yeshua1

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    [Would say that DHK views on this issue are fully Arminian, but not false in the sense of him holding to another/false Gospel, as he would also seed that one is saved by grace alone thru faith alone!
     
  12. Protestant

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    The Question of Foreknowledge

    DHK wrote:
    The question does not concern God’s omniscience. God knows all things. (1 John 3:20)

    Not only does He know all things existing, He knows the infinite possibilities of infinite things were they to actually exist.

    With God all things are possible. (Matt. 19:26)

    But alas, infinite possibilities are not possible for men of flesh and blood.

    For example, our Lord has set various boundaries and times for all men on earth:

    And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation (Acts 17:26)

    A person's days are determined; you have decreed the number of his months and have set limits he cannot exceed. (Job 14:5 NIV)

    To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
    2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
    3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
    4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
    5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
    6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
    7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
    8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
    (Eccles. 3:1-8)

    Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. (Psalm 139:16 NIV)

    These few verses make it clear that man has God-ordained limitations, as well as God-ordained appointed times in which to undertake God-ordained appointed tasks.

    These set boundaries, times and tasks are the result of God’s providence; His ruling and governing all things which He created for His sovereign good pleasure.

    ….one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. (Eph. 4:6 ESV)

    Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. (Rev. 4:11)

    Foreknowledge, on the other hand, knows beforehand only those things God has decreed which will actually come to pass.

    Foreknowledge is that infallible knowledge by which God knows all things before they become reality here on earth.

    All which comes to pass in time is the result of the willful design and purpose of God in eternity.

    And nothing is decreed to come to pass without infinite wisdom and for holy and righteous purposes.

    If you awake tomorrow morning, it was the eternal will of God you do so.
    If you die before you wake, it was the eternal will of God you do so.

    Likewise if you embrace Christ as Lord and Savior, it was the eternal will of God you do so.

    Do you love God in Christ?

    If so, God loved you first. (1 John 4:19)

    In fact, He loved you with an everlasting love…..from eternity.

    Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee. (Jeremiah 31:3)

    Those He loved from eternity He purposed to save from the eternal condemnation their sins deserved by mercifully and graciously sending His Son to pay their sin debt in full.

    Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. (1 John 4:10)

    It is those whom God loved from eternity, who are the ‘foreknown,’ elected to salvation by His Son, Jesus Christ.

    Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father (1 Peter 1:2)

    For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Romans 8:29)

    Believing on Christ is an act of love.

    Such love did not originate with us.

    The origin and cause of our love for God in Christ is the infinite, omnipotent, eternal love of the Father.

    We love him because he first loved us.

    Therefore, the origin and cause of our faith in Christ is also of God.

    Scripture is clear. God’s foreknowledge of His Elect is not the result of our loving Christ first, but rather the opposite: God loved His Elect first, thereby causing us to love Christ through believing on Him.

    For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. (Romans 11:36)
     
  13. Rippon

    Rippon
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    Protestant, it will be next-to-impossible for anyone to argue against your well-reasoned and biblical post.
     
  14. DHK

    DHK
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    But it does. Do you deny the omniscience of God? Yes or no?

    IOW, He is omniscient. Pure semantics, unless you are limiting God, which is heresy.
    God knows only those things which he has decreed which will actually come to pass????????????
    Heresy. He is omniscient. He knows all things; not just those things which he has decreed. What kind of God do you serve?

    Stated better now: Now he knows "all things before they come to pass."
    You are confused. Of course he knows all things before they come to pass. He is omniscient.
    Have you ever heard of: I.D. Intelligent Design. Everything that was created was created by God, by His wisdom, and design. We all know that. This is common knowledge and was common knowledge before Calvinism ever existed. The oldest book in the Bible (Job) will confirm this truth.

    And if a terrorist assassinates the President of the USA is that the eternal will of God? If yes, then you believe in fatalism--your doctrine is no different than the fatalism of Islam (just a different God, that is all).

    True, but does He love the so-called non-elect with that same kind of love, or (as the typical Calvinist will say) does he have "two kinds of love"? If so, then you are holding to biblical error.

    From eternity past there wasn't one individual created that he never loved. He sent his Son to pay the price for every soul he ever created.

    Quote the entire verse:
    AND FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD!

    Those, whom he knew before hand, would believe on his name.

    He did know beforehand who would believe on him. On that basis they were predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son.
    Predestination never refers to the unsaved, always to the believer.

    First and foremost it is an act of faith.

    Of course.

    That is only true of the believer. God does not give the unsaved divine love or faith. There is no such thing as an unbeliever being saved with God's faith. That is absurd. Jesus repeated over and over again. "Thy faith has made you whole;" "according to your faith..." Why did he say "YOUR FAITH," if God gave him the faith. Your theology is obviously very messed up.
    God elected those whom he knew beforehand would believe on him. It is called omniscience.
     
  15. SovereignGrace

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    They just did. :tongue3:
     
  16. Protestant

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    Brother Rippon,

    Pastor DHK has a disturbing habit of stating as fact that which is in contention. The foundation of his arguments are the very points in debate. He assumes that which is yet to be proved.

    You have spent much time and effort in patiently teaching the different shades of meaning which 'all' and 'world' may have, depending on context, and in light of other similar passages.

    There is no question as to the sincerity and zealousness of our Pelagian/Arminian adversaries.

    However, one must eventually confront the hard question: how is it possible for two groups to claim the same Holy Spirit divine teacher whom Jesus promised will lead His people into all truth.

    Has our Lord lied because the Holy Spirit has failed to perform His office as Teacher of Truth adequately?

    Impossible.

    Can both sides of the controversy be wrong?

    Not really, because the questions in controversy do not lend themselves to a third choice.

    The answers to the questions are either one or the other.

    Either Christ paid the sin debt of the whole world or He paid for the sin debt of the Elect world-wide.

    Either the Father accepted the payment for the whole world or He accepted the payment for the Elect world-wide.

    Either Christ died for the sins of the whole world or Christ died for the sins of the Elect world-wide.

    Either Christ is the Savior of the Elect and Reprobate or Christ is the Savior of the Elect alone.

    Either the Father gave the Son all mankind to save, or He gave the Son all the Elect world-wide to save.

    Either Christ’s blood saves all those whom it was intended to save or it does not.

    Either Christ’s blood is sufficient to save to the uttermost all those for whom it was shed, or it is not.

    Either Christ is a perfect Savior or He is not.

    Either God loves all men equally or He does not.

    Either man has the innate power to believe on Christ or he does not.

    Either man is the ultimate decision-maker as to his eternal destiny or he is not.

    Either faith is the gracious gift of God to the Elect or it is not.

    Either man has the freedom of the will to love and follow Christ or he does not.

    Either God has determined in eternity those who will be His people, without foreseeing their exercise of faith, or He has not.

    Either God is dependent on man’s decision before he can be saved, or He is not.

    Bottom line: Either God is God or He is not.
     
  17. SovereignGrace

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    You seem to appear to be advocating the 'foreseen faith' election? Is this correct?
     
  18. Rippon

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    Protestant had said :'The question does not concern God's omniscience. God knows all things. (1 John 3:20)"

    Yet DHK rejoins with chicanery.

    Typical DHK debate tactic. I can't count all the times he has employed this abominable device.

    Another excretable contrivance that DHK, (who is permitted to be be a mod on the BB) comes up with so often. Though he has been taken to task for this underhanded tactic, he employs it at will.

    As He does with the elect? Of course not.

    Here is where DHK lays his cards on the table. He believes in foreseen faith. He denies that there are those whom God loved from eternity --the 'foreknown' elected to salvation by His Son, Jesus Christ.

    And by the above you deny what 1 Peter 1:2 and Romans 8:29 state.
    That's a perfect example of DKHism. What an egregious exegete he is.

    As Prot. has said:

    "God loved His Elect first, thereby causing us to love Christ through believing on Him."

    Those whose names are inscribed in the Lamb's Book of Life are the elect. It is they and they only who are the redeemed --washed in the blood of the Lamb.
     
  19. DHK

    DHK
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    This is what I said and what you are replying to:

    God elected those whom he knew beforehand would believe on him. It is called omniscience.


    It is also what the Bible teaches.
    ...being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
    Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
    --The purpose of predestination is to to the praise of his glory.

    Before time ever was, God so loved the world, not the elect, but the world.
    It was his will that all men should be saved.
    That all should come to repentance.
    That no one should perish.
    For he is the propitiation not for our sins only but for the sins of all the world.

    In fact it is heresy, or as Peter said, a damnable heresy for those false teachers to come and teach believers of a limited atonement.

    2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

    2Pe 2:1 But false prophets were also among the people, as also false teachers will be among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, and denying the Master who has bought them, bringing swift destruction on themselves.

    This is a destructive (even damnable) heresy that Peter points out. Those are Peter's words, not mine. He defines limited atonement quite well and then condemns it.
     
  20. BrotherJoseph

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    I guess per your doctrine then His will above as stated is not fulfilled?

    Again, I guess God was "foiled" again in His will as we know not every human being comes to repentance?


    Yet a third thing according to you that God "willed", but not only did not come to pass as some do perish, but His "will" was foiled by none other than who, puny man? This God sounds like a failure!

    Brother DHK, you always post that passage in Peter on the forum as applying to your Calvinist brothers, but I am still at a lost at how you can do that, but still maintain those who believe in a limited atonement (according to your interpretation of Peter a "damnable heresy) are your brothers in Christ?
     
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