A Good Sound Reading

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Frogman, Aug 5, 2005.

  1. Frogman

    Frogman
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    Is this written by one who teaches lost sinners to make a choice and live, or one who teaches they are dead in trespasses and sins until they are made alive?

    I will supply the author's name later. What do you think is the belief of this writer? :confused:
    Bro. Dallas [​IMG]
     
  2. Pipedude

    Pipedude
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    Sounds like a Calvinist to me, based on his allusions to the active righteousness of Christ and the line "How secure their eternal destiny."

    Other than that, there's nothing in it contrary to Arminianism.

    On the other hand, it seems rather careless for a Calvinist to say "He redeemed you by his blood," (etc.) since the writer knows only that the reader is burdened by sin, and not that the reader is elect--unless the writer believes that only the elect can be burdened by sin.
     
  3. King James Bond

    King James Bond
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    Frogman,

    That is a very wonderful writing there. I am not sure who wrote it.

    I want to try and set straight what may be completely misunderstood by many on these debate forums. (not speaking of you by the way)

    It is not wrong for people to tell other people to repent and turn to Jesus Christ.

    People are supposed to turn and be forgiven.

    We are to tell people to have a complete change of heart.

    We who have been saved have it in us to want to tell people about Jesus Christ.

    Why? The cause! "Be-CAUSE" we have Jesus Christ in us.

    It is not our free-will....but rather a changed will. Who changed it? Jesus Christ in us.

    People make choices. People have wills.

    They are not "free" in any sense of the word free.

    The natural man wants nothing of the true living God. He does not understand such things.

    That does not mean that people are not looking for and making gods.

    When we read in Scripture about freewill offerings it is speaking about giving above and over what was due.

    When people put a "free" in front of the words "will" and "choice" those words are modified.

    The point is that NO PERSON is capable of turning to Jesus Christ without an effectual cause to do so.

    We turn beCAUSE He CAUSES us to turn.

    There has to be a cause....why? Simply because we live in a cause and effect world.

    God is the ultimate cause of ALL things.

    Nothing exists unless God has caused it to exist. (except for God)

    People are under His laws.

    People were given commandments and were told to keep them.

    God has commanded people to choose and obey every law in the book of law.....it does by no means insinuate they are capable of choosing to do so.

    If people turn to Jesus Christ they must come in an acceptable way......there will be many that come one day saying "Lord, Lord".

    He does not respond to them with any remarks about them knowing Him....He replies "Go away I never knew you".

    People will come to Jesus Christ for all kinds of reasons. They will claim to know Him.

    They will come for heaven, miracles, food, money, healing, new BMWs, for this, for that,...etc etc.

    What is the acceptable way to come to Jesus Christ? What is the way He will accept?

    I would like everybody to try a simple experiment.

    Try and FREELY-CHOOSE to turn away from Jesus Christ for a week.

    WILL it with all the WILL you can muster up.

    I know I can't do it.....I dont WILL or want to do it.

    I have no desire to do so.....my will is bound. My choices are not free.

    I am BOUND to my choice and can't freely-choose otherwise.

    My mind, my soul, my conscience, my heart is bound to Him as if I was locked in wonderful unbreakable chains!

    I thank Him for freeing me and holding me captive !

    By grace you are saved.......

    Now WHO really deserves ALL the credit?

    Regards, KJB [​IMG] God bless you all!
     
  4. Frogman

    Frogman
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    Pipedude,
    Why does it seem careless for a Calvinist to speak "He redeemed you by His blood".

    Do not Arminian and free-will believers state the same thing?

    As you know, any who are redeemed are redeemed by His blood.

    This man is neither Calvinist nor Arminian and most certainly not free-will.

    He is not Calvinist because he does not accept the 5 points of TULIP. But he is a believer in the Doctrines of God's Sovereign Grace.

    It is a beautiful writing from someone who believes there is an elect people for whom Christ died, who were elected before the foundation of the world and not according to the foreknowledge of their faith, but according to the Love of God in Christ.

    Here is a link to the entire article:

    Romans 7:24

    The writer is Elder James H. Oliphant, a Primitive Baptist. Primitive Baptists are often called hardshellers.

    They differ in Calvins TULIP as they believe Perserverance is only possible by Preservation, it is a little deeper than that, but that is a fair summary, I think. There are some on here and if I have misrepresented them I hope they will correct me.

    My point is that we often only know what we are told about a people, it is not until we read and discuss with them that we know what they really believe.

    Primitive Baptists also disagree with Calvin and subsequently most other Calvinists on the church, but they, for all their hardshellism (which is really hard shall ism and not shell ism), do not rant and revile those of other groups because they have a simple faith that Christ has drawn from among all groups them that the Father has given him. They do teach that we are under gospel duty as believers to obey the commands of Christ, but they hold no form of dominion over the faith of any other; they point all who would come to them to Christ alone, for in Christ alone rests their very own hope.

    Not in church relationship, not in baptism of any sort, not in any good they have done, but in the fact of His having come and spoke to them, that they have a cloak for their sin.

    Imagine, ones so 'hard' from among who a preacher of the gospel speaks to sinners as such.

    Bro. Dallas [​IMG]
     
  5. Pipedude

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    Disclaimer: I said nothing about hardshellers, so let's leave them alone for a minute.

    My original observation, and your accurate quotation, mention "Calvinist" and "he redeemed you by his blood."

    You have asked why I consider it careless for a Calvinist to use this language. Here's why:

    A Calvinist believes in particular redemption: Christ redeemed only the elect.

    Was Mr. Oliphant addressing only the elect, or was he addressing sinners generally who are under a burden for their sin? I raised that question originally, suggesting that he was addressing sinners generally (unless he believed that only the elect are burdened by sin).

    Therefore, to say "he redeemed you" when, in fact, you may be addressing someone he didn't redeem, is careless.

    But you already knew that...
     
  6. Frogman

    Frogman
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    Pipedude,
    If I misunderstood your point, or if I misrepresented your question I am sorry. My point is however, is that the belief in Sovereign Grace including particular redemption which unless I am wrong is most certainly believed among Primitive Baptists, does not prevent anyone from addressing sinners.

    It is a Biblical truth that only those who are sinners are those who Christ has redeemed. None others.

    Elder Oliphant is certainly speaking to a group of people of whom he knows not regarding their eternal election before God. However, his words, imho, are spoken to show them the way, being burdened under their sins, having tried time and again to live a life according to the law of God, he is now showing them their only hope lies in Christ and his righteousness.

    Spurgeon, a Calvinist, made a similar analogy that may be easier to understand. When asked how anyone could come to Christ not knowing whether they were eternally elect or not, He used a table prepared for a meal.

    He simply said that no man goes to the table prepared to eat unless he is hungry, and no man fears that God has eternally decreed that a portion of that meal would choke him and take his life from him, but he comes to the table to eat simply because he is hungry. He went on and said the same of one who is thirsty, or one who is a farmer. Neither drinks fearing they shall drown by God's eternal plan, but they simply drink because he/she is thirsty. In the case of the farmer, he plants his crops, as is his nature every year to do. He trusts in the Lord to bless the harvest to the sustaining of his life and livlihood. (and I would add here, that also of his family, but let that be for another misconstrued topic regarding calvinists). The point is, the farmer, the one who hungers, the one who thirsts, do not fear that God has condemned them but because of their desire their hunger, their thirst, and their need as a farmer to be about that which is their vocation, they simply do.

    Bro. Dallas [​IMG]
     
  7. Pipedude

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    Well, of course not! Some of the greatest evangelists in history have been Calvinists.

    Mr./Elder Oliphant, because of his great love for the lost, just slipped into Arminian terminology. We all have days like that. Noetic effects of sin, no doubt.
     
  8. King James Bond

    King James Bond
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    When we speak about "perseverance" of the elect.......you could say preservation as well.

    Those that are preserved will perservere.

    The entire foundation of correct doctrine spelled out as "Saved by grace" is not something missing from Calvinism at all.

    But no matter what......the entire proclamation written in Scripture (Saved By grace) defends itself.

    It needs no in depth explanations along with mountains of interpretation if it is only read and understood in its most simple form.

    To perservere simply means to persist in a state, enterprise, or undertaking in spite of counterinfluences, opposition, or discouragement. Websters

    It is God that causes perserverance because the entire salvation process from the start to finish is His.

    There is not one small thing the creature can do to merit salvation.

    It is all of "His grace".

    For it is by grace you have been saved , through faith--and this not from youselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast.

    How much more simple do people need it to be?

    It reads; saved by grace!

    It does not read;

    For it is by grace you have been offered the opportunity to be saved if you have enough faith

    You have been saved by grace! If you are saved......it was by grace!

    We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved...Acts 15

    "As for you [believers], you were DEAD in your transgressions and sins [before you became believers], in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air [Satan], the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient......We were by nature objects of [God's] wrath. But because of his great love for us, God who is rich in Mercy, MADE US ALIVE with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved " (Ephesians 2:1-5).

    It is grace that preserves and causes perserverance.

    Calvinists do know of sovereign grace.

    Regards, KJB [​IMG]
     
  9. Frogman

    Frogman
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    KJB, I agree.

    Pipedude,
    I am of the opinion this writing by Elder Oliphant dispels the myth among Arminians and Free-willers that those who believe in the truth of Particular Redemption do not address sinners, nor point them to Christ.

    Elder Oliphant, imho, has written from a heart which is made to see the unworthiness of any other means of redemption apart from Sovereign Grace.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  10. Pipedude

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    Purtnere any writing by a Calvinist regarding evangelism would accomplish the same thing. Any Arminian who thinks otherwise is just ignorant.

    Of course, how y'all keep up your motivation is a mystery to me, but I readily admit that you do. Whether you do it more than Arminians is an empirical question that can't be examined. In fact, I have no opinion on the question. It could go either way.
     
  11. Frogman

    Frogman
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    Of course, how y'all keep up your motivation is a mystery to me, but I readily admit that you do.

    Romans 1:5

    {taken from the SwordSearcher Bible Program, thus, what is found as explanation in brackets is from that program}.

    May God Bless,
    Bro. Dallas [​IMG]
     

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