A hard verse for a Calvinist...

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Jarthur001, Jun 10, 2006.

  1. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
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    2 Corinthians 5

    I'm teaching in 2 Corinthians 5 and I read this verse 15 in a new light.
    There is really no need to talk about verse 14, this has been done for years and both sides know their lines well when it comes to verse 14.

    But looking at 15 it reads...

    He died for all....yet when it is said..."they which lives"..it would seem to also means that some that He died for do not live.

    Your ideas please.


    IN Christ..James
     
    #1 Jarthur001, Jun 10, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 10, 2006
  2. Pipedude

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    Theology is a great shoe horn. If the verse doesn't fit, get out the shoe horn, apply pressure from the back, and make the verse slip in.

    Works for all theological systems. If it causes pain, no you worry; you get used to it.

    Learn to make shoe horn at any local seminaries, or just buy a commentary for the system you want to wear and use the prefabricated shoe horns within.

    Never fails. Millions of satisfied customers.

    Ah-men.
     
  3. Jarthur001

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    OK..thanks..

    I think..maybe....not sure.:cool:
     
  4. Grasshopper

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    Perhaps the "they that live" is the "all" that Paul refers to.

    But I am sure the anti-calvinist will point out my error, then a Calvinist will point out the error of the anti-calvinsist who pointed out my error, and so it goes and goes and goes....
     
  5. npetreley

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    I think that's blatantly obvious from the verse in its entirety.

    Who is it who will no longer live unto themselvse but for Him which died for them? Who are "them"? They which live. Those are all of them for whom He died.
     
  6. Brother Bob

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    Same o, all is not all.
     
  7. StraightAndNarrow

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    I, too think the meaning is clear.

    "And that He died for all" Christ died for all mankind (ALL really does mean all.)

    "that they which live" those who have accepted Him as their Lord and Savior.

    "should not henceforth live unto themselves but for Him which died for them." True Christians demonstrate their faith in the life they live.

    :Fish:
     
  8. Terry_Herrington

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    :thumbs:

    I don't know why the Calvinist try to make confusing what God has made simple.
     
  9. Grasshopper

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    If "all" means "all" in the anti-calvinist world, does "many" mean "many" or or does it also mean "all"?

    Mat 20:28 even as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.

    Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

    Now did He give His life for "all" or "many"?
    Did He shed His blood for "all" or "many"?

    Are those two scriptures as clear as 2 Corithians 5:15?

    If Christ layed down His life for "all", then "all" are His sheep.

    Joh 10:11 I am the Good Shepherd. The Good Shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.
    Joh 10:15 Even as the Father knows Me, I also know the Father. And I lay down My life for the sheep.

    Christ layed down His life for "all".
    Christ layed down His life for the sheep.
    Thus the "all" are sheep.

    No goats? Universalism?
     
  10. Brother Bob

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    Laid down His life for all is "he opened the door by His blood but all must go through the door. "I am the door" saith the Lord.

    All in any way you want to take it means "many". I saw all of those that came to church this morning and I am glad that so many came, some of them could of refused if they so desired.
     
    #10 Brother Bob, Jun 11, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 11, 2006
  11. Grasshopper

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    All must always be put in context.

    Did Jesus die for the goats?
     
  12. DeafPosttrib

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    I am not a calvinist. I strongly disagree with calvinism.

    1 John 2:2 is the clearlest and simple verse. It says, "And he(Christ) is the propitiation for OUR sins: and not for our's only, But also for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD."

    Notice it says, "and NOT for our's only", it speaks of elect's sins. Many calvinists saying on "not for our's only" apply to Jews. Jews??? Apostle John doesn't saying it. Notice word, 'OUR' simple means believers. Remember, the three epistles of John were written toward BELIEVERS only.

    So, it says, "but also the sins of the WHOLE WORLD". It is very clear speak of sinners of the world. Christ died for ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL sinners from the beginning to the end of the world. Very simple andplain.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  13. 2BHizown

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    What took place at the cross?

    What do you think took place at the cross?
    Did Christ pay for the sins of the whole world?
    Or did He pay for the sins of those predestined to believe in Him?
    If He paid for the sins of the whole world then some people are in hell right now whose sins have been paid for, right? Or after rejecting the Savior who died for their sins do they then die and pay for them again?
    How do you think that works?
     
  14. Brother Bob

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    He was talking about men and to men. Goats is a strawgoat.:laugh: :laugh:

    No they are not in Hell, I told you they had to go through the door which is Jesus. The blood is there they just have to receive it.
     
  15. Grasshopper

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    Jesus layed down His life for the sheep, did He also lay down His life for the goats?

    Mat 25:33 And indeed He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats off the left.
    Mat 25:34 Then the King shall say to those on His right hand, Come, blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
     
  16. Grasshopper

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    Joh 12:19 the Pharisees, therefore, said among themselves, `Ye see that ye do not gain anything, lo, the world did go after him.'

    Did the "world" go after Him?

    I like what Gill says:

    but also for the sins of the whole world; the Syriac version renders it, "not for us only, but also for the whole world"; that is, not for the Jews only, for John was a Jew, and so were those he wrote unto, but for the Gentiles also. Nothing is more common in Jewish writings than to call the Gentiles עלמא, "the world"; and כל העולם, "the whole world"; and אומות העולם, "the nations of the world"
     
  17. Brother Bob

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    Hebrews, chapter 2
    "9": But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    According to the Scriptures, Yes!! What about calling it "every man".
     
  18. StraightAndNarrow

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    I don't have to guess how that works. It's clearly answered in scripture.
     
  19. StraightAndNarrow

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    I don't have to guess how that works. It's clearly answered in scripture in John 3:16.
     
  20. Grasshopper

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    "perish" is an interesting word isn't it?
     

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