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A matter of Money

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Testimony, Jan 8, 2003.

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  1. Testimony

    Testimony New Member

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    I'm a deacon and on the Trustee Board in my church. Some years ago, the financial situation in our church was quite stable and we were able to make improvements around the church, help the community in addition to contributing to the poor. A situation arose approx. 3 years ago where the pastor (through somewhat "questionable" means)"urged" the congration into giving him quite a substantial raise....that raise has the finances in a pretty bleak situation at this point.(i.e., we're behind in our utility bills, salaries to the musicians and alas, even the pastor) We do however have one last account that has not been touched and the pastor is pushing to do an early redrawal of that account - I'm sad to say without the knowledge of the church body. The withdrawal would require my signature and I frankly do not know what to do.

    Your advise would be greatly appreciated [​IMG]
     
    #1 Testimony, Jan 8, 2003
  2. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    My two cents. If you don't think it will change the situation, then don't do it. Many churches right now are in dire financial straits, and you're not alone. My church has an endowment fund for groundskeeping and building maintenance. The principal is not to be touoched. The interest is to be used to subsidize the cost of keeping the property up. It may not be used for another purpose, unless the earnings is greater than the costs of upkeep. If the church were to dip into that fund, it would invariably affect all future earnings, which would mean a greater monthly cost just to keep the lawn mowed. Plus, we'd be bad stewards of the funds that were donated for that purpose.
     
    #2 Johnv, Jan 8, 2003
  3. Testimony

    Testimony New Member

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    In an effort to be a good steward, I refused to sign for the money to be released - I was asked to leave the office. I just feel like I'm in a real dilemma and I'm asking for prayer as the pastor refuses to have business meetings to inform the body of the real financial situation.

    Our congregation is less than 100 and just the pastor's salary alone is $5000 a month.

    Any suggestions?
     
    #3 Testimony, Jan 8, 2003
  4. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    He doesn't sound like a shepherd to me. He sounds like a thief. Fire him.

    [ January 09, 2003, 08:36 AM: Message edited by: Aaron ]
     
    #4 Aaron, Jan 8, 2003
  5. Bible-belted

    Bible-belted New Member

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    YOu are accountable toGod, but that shows itself in accountability to the congregation for you as much as it does the pastor.

    Look at it this way. Even if you sign, you're delaying the inevitable. That money will dry up. And you'll be exactly where you are now, but with no buffer.

    May I suggest that this go to the congregation? This sounds like something that needs to be worked at by all concerned.
     
    #5 Bible-belted, Jan 8, 2003
  6. JIMNSC

    JIMNSC New Member

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    Testimony - Do your by-laws not stipulate that when a proposed expenditure will exceed "X" amount that it must be brought before the congregation for their vote of approval? Sounds as if you're talking about a sizeable sum.

    In the meantime, if you still haven't signed - don't. You'd be just as guilty as he.

    A friend - Jim
     
    #6 JIMNSC, Jan 8, 2003
  7. Refreshed

    Refreshed Member
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    I e-mailed my pastor and asked him what he thought about the situation and asked what he would tell someone who was in your situation. Here was his reply:

    "There is no question that this would be an unethical thing for this man to do.

    The secrecy within which the Pastor seeks to bring this about is an indication to me that even HE knows it is unethical. When the fat hit the fan this man would be held libel as well. He, due to their corporate status, has a first loyalty to the corporation. He is in a position that was created to protect the very assets he is being asked to pirate away.

    I think that he should share these thoughts with his Pastor first and, based upon his Pastor's reaction, determine where to take it from there.

    He is not in a very comfortable position and I do not envy him. He must do what is right no matter what the outcome."

    I hope this helps.

    Jason
     
    #7 Refreshed, Jan 9, 2003
  8. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Stand and be counted, friend. This man sounds like the proverbial "hireling" and not a Biblical pastor. Sad.

    Q: For evil to succeed, what must a good man do?

    A: _______________

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
    #8 Dr. Bob, Jan 9, 2003
  9. Abiyah

    Abiyah <img src =/abiyah.gif>

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    Please pardon my ignorance here, but am I mis-
    taken to think that a pastor's salary of $5000 a
    month from a church of 100 members is a very
    large sum? There are many churches that size
    with pastors needing to work outside the church
    in order to supplement their incomes. If they
    got half that salary, they would think they had
    indeed died and goen to Heaven.
     
    #9 Abiyah, Jan 9, 2003
  10. Testimony

    Testimony New Member

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    To be perfectly truthful, it has been his salary of $5000 per month that has caused a financial strain and he has chosen to not deal with the board but rather the financial secretary, who beside myself and another deacon, has the authority to write checks. The other deacon, who was the Chairman of the Deacon Board was publicly "fired" for speaking up in a prior meeting. As I stated before, when I was asked to sign to get the balance of the monies we have left in the bank, and when I refused, I was told to get out of the office and that he had other means of acquiring the funds. A meeting was then called on Sunday by the Pastor informing the body of the "NEW" trustee board, however my signature is still very much in affect at the bank. When I attempted to speak in this meeting and remind the pastor of the by-laws, I was quickly silenced and 2 of the assistant ministers came back and asked me to sit down and be quiet or leave. This has taken such a toll on me spiritually and I respectly request your prayers. :(
     
    #10 Testimony, Jan 9, 2003
  11. Testimony

    Testimony New Member

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    To be perfectly truthful, it has been his salary of $5000 per month that has caused a financial strain and he has chosen to not deal with the board but rather the financial secretary, who beside myself and another deacon, has the authority to write checks. The other deacon, who was the Chairman of the Deacon Board was publicly "fired" for speaking up in a prior meeting. As I stated before, when I was asked to sign to get the balance of the monies we have left in the bank, and when I refused, I was told to get out of the office and that he had other means of acquiring the funds. A meeting was then called on Sunday by the Pastor informing the body of the "NEW" trustee board, however my signature is still very much in affect at the bank. When I attempted to speak in this meeting and remind the pastor of the by-laws, I was quickly silenced and 2 of the assistant ministers came back and asked me to sit down and be quiet or leave. This has taken such a toll on me spiritually and I respectly request your prayers. :(
     
    #11 Testimony, Jan 9, 2003
  12. Refreshed

    Refreshed Member
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    Amen Dr. Bob.
     
    #12 Refreshed, Jan 9, 2003
  13. Refreshed

    Refreshed Member
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    Two assistant pastors and a regular pastor with a salary of $5,000.00 does seem atypical for sure.

    Jason
     
    #13 Refreshed, Jan 9, 2003
  14. Bible-belted

    Bible-belted New Member

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    Abiyah,

    I have pastored churches in that size range. The highest salary I have seen is $5000, but in Canadian funds. So that would be about $4000 a month in USD. And that one church had HUGE endowments. Like over $1 million. No way they could make a go of it otherwise.
     
    #14 Bible-belted, Jan 9, 2003
  15. Abiyah

    Abiyah <img src =/abiyah.gif>

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    This is what I thought.

    - - - - - - -

    Oh, Testimony. You have my prayers indeed. I
    pray for guidance for you. I pray that you cling
    to the One who is able to bring you through this.
    I pray that you will be able to see and grasp the
    truth and make the right judgments.

    I pray for that pastor and his supporters. I pray
    that the Lord who sees and knows tthe truth will
    help the pastor do what is right, even if it by our
    God's hornets. I pray that those who support him
    will see the truth and will not be able to resist sup-
    porting the truth in integrity.

    I pray that you and all the congregation will be in
    awe at how few will be hurt in seeking resolution,
    that this will make them only stronger, and that
    they use this experience to grow and learn by.
     
    #15 Abiyah, Jan 9, 2003
  16. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    Oh Testimony, you are to be congratulated for your actions.

    You deserve prayers, praise, and commendation to the fullest!
     
    #16 Johnv, Jan 9, 2003
  17. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    Dude, you gotta get any and all other deacons in on this. You gotta tell the congregation somehow, some way.

    As I advised someone else about another matter, you gotta talk to someone else in the congregation, and if they feel it's wrong, too, take them with you to see the pastor. If the pastor won't listen to the both (or three) of you--and from what you've posted, he won't--then you've gotta make it public to the church.

    As one who learned this the hard way--you gotta. 'Cause if you leave, you're just leaving the others to deal with the problem you knew about.

    Ain't gonna be easy. You're in my prayers.
     
    #17 Don, Jan 9, 2003
  18. Testimony

    Testimony New Member

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    To Abiyah and all who are praying - My heartfelt thanks and blessings go to you for lifting me up in prayer. I know that this is JUST A TEST and that we will come thru victoriously.

    May God Forever Bless and Keep each one of you and thanks again for letting me "unload" my burdens. [​IMG]
     
    #18 Testimony, Jan 9, 2003
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