A-millennialists believers ?

Romans 9-11 does not teach:

1. That Jesus Christ came to establish the Messianic kingdom.
2. That he failed in His task and established the "parenthesis" Church.
3. That the Church fails its Great Commission and has to be removed from this earth.
4. That there are multiple resurrections.
5. That there is a 1000 year earthly kingdom, over which Jesus Christ in the full Glory of the Godhead reigns, and in which the Jews lord it over the Gentiles.

Romans 9-11 does teach:

1. "They are not all Israel which are of Israel".
2. God has not cast away those of Israel that he forknew, the elect.
3. A deliverer will come out of Zion and already has 2000 years ago in the person of Jesus Christ.
4. That believing Gentiles are grafted into the good olive tree which was the Church of the Old Testament and that the olive tree consisting of believing Jews and believing Gentiles form the New Testament Church.

 

I just meant that as a term of affection since that was so vividly demonstrated in your response to me. But then it is no more insulting than OldReg.

 

You might check out post #3.

 

OldRegular: "Romans 9-11 does not teach: ... "

Exactly. If your numbered statement is true, then it is taught
other than in Romans Chapters 9-11; if your statement
is false, it isn't taught anywhere in the Bible.

OldRegular: "Romans 9-11 does teach: ... "

Amen, Brother OldRegular -- Preach it!
You understand and believe in Dispensationalism.
So you are a dispensational a-mill post-trib.
IMHO that is a minority a-mill position.
Most who spiritualize the Millinnial Kingdom of Christ,
also spiritualize the Physical return of Christ
and largely ignore Romans 9-11 in favor of mystical
knowledge which you and i can't begin to understand.

 

I glad that OldRegular shows scriptures to you with truth. He's right, I agree with him.

Romans 9-11, Apostle Paul tells us, not all of them are true Israel. He speaks of difference between flesh & spirit. All of them were born in Abraham, like as Pharisees told Christ, they came from Abraham as their father. But, they are not belong to Abraham's seed. Because of disbelief, and dead in flesh, also, they are not belong to Christ's. Jews who believe in Christ, in their faith, they in God's spirit, as they belong to Christ's. I suggest you to read whole Galatians chapter 3 talks about Abraham's seed. Both Jews and Gentiles already become one unity through Christ, because of their faith on Jesus Christ.

in my Early Christian life. I know nothing of amill doctrine. I heard of amill very little, as what I heard from premills saying about them. They saying amill is anti-semitic, means they against Jews. Premill saying, amill denys Christ shall come to reign 1,000 years on earth. Also, premill saying, amill comes from Roman Catholic - St. Augustine.

I was premill for a long time. Till 4 years ago, I started to dig God's Word deeper study on millennium. The more I find troubles from Bible shows me there are conflicts with premil doctrine. God's Word caused me depart premil doctrine, I rather follow what the Bible saying than what men saying according to Colossians 2:8.

My belief of Christ's coming never, never change since Early Christian life to today. I always believe future physical coming of Christ. Early, I thought amill deny future physical coming of Christ. Till 3 years ago, I started to study on amill doctrine, what they really believe. I found that all of them believe future physical coming of Christ. I glad that they believe same as mine.

Also, I learned that amills never saying that they hate Jews, they believe both Jews and Gentiles are share together in Jesus Christ as God's family.

Premil include Hal Lindsey who accuse amills, they are anit-semitic, is not true. They easy misunderstanding, what amills really believe.

Tomorrow night, I will make more posts about eschatology doctrine, to show you with verses more clarify, what amill believes.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Ed,

What is the purpose of Calvary?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

I suppose you could call me a dispensationalist since I believe that Scripture notes that there have been two dispensations, stewardships or administrations, of the Covenant of Grace. Please note that the word dispensation does not appear in the Old Testament and only 4 times in the New Testament.[1 Corinthians 9:17; Ephesians 1:10; 3;2; Colossians 1:25]

The Covenant of Grace

"The Covenant of Grace constitutes the basis for the salvation of the elect of God through Jesus Christ, the mediator of the Covenant, the only mediator between God and man [1 Timothy 2:5]. The Covenant of Grace is perhaps best understood as an eternal covenant between the members of the Godhead which includes the following elements:

1. the Father chose a people to be His own;
2. the Son agrees to pay the penalty for the sins of all those the Father gives Him so that none are lost; and
3. the Holy Spirit agrees to apply the work of the Son to those chosen by God.

We must not think that this Covenant of Grace was preceded by a proposal of terms by one person of the Triune Godhead followed by deliberation prior to acceptance or rejection of the proposal by the other persons of the Triune Godhead. God is One and the nature of the Godhead is such that perfect harmony, in fact, unity of thought must exist within the Triune Godhead.

Holy Scripture is the story of the outworking of the Covenant of Grace in time and history. Though there is one Covenant of Grace [and many subsidiary covenants] there have been two primary administrations of the Covenant, one before the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ and one after His death and resurrection. The first administration as recorded in the Old Testament dealt in types and shadows of things to come [Colossians 2:17, Hebrews 8:5 and 10:1]; the second administration, as recorded in the New Testament, presents the spiritual reality of that which was promised. This second administration was instituted by the death of Jesus Christ [Hebrews 7:14-28] and is the fulfillment of the Old Testament promise of a New Covenant [Jeremiah 31:31-33, Hebrews 8:6-13]. The elect of God have, since the fall of Adam, received the blessings of the Covenant solely through the Grace of God."

Now that I have cleared up my dispensationalism [please note that there are only two, not seven] I will try to clear up any confusion you may have regarding amillennialism, particularly as it regards the Second Coming by repeating an earlier post. Please note that when I use the term "Second Coming" I mean the physical, visible return of Jesus Christ [Revelation 1:7].

Amillennialism

A number of writers have noted that the term amillennialism does not accurately portray amillennial doctrine but implies that amillennialists do not believe in a millennium or ignore the first six verses of Revelation 20, neither of which is true. However, no one has suggested a more appropriate name that has received wide acceptance.

Those people who hold the amillennial doctrine believe in a general or universal resurrection [that is a resurrection of all the dead at the ‘second coming’ of Jesus Christ] followed by the general, ‘the Great White Throne’ judgment. Perhaps the most significant passage of Scripture that teaches a general resurrection and judgment is spoken by the Lord Jesus Christ:

John 5:28,29, KJV
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Other Scripture which teach a General Resurrection and Judgment are:

Daniel 12:1,2, KJV
1. And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

Acts 24:14,15, KJV
14. But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
15. And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

It follows, therefore, that amillennialists do not believe that Jesus Christ reigns from an earthly throne for a period of one thousand years. Rather amillennialists in general believe that the deceased Saints [those who have part in the first resurrection, the resurrection of Jesus Christ] are now reigning with Jesus Christ in heaven. Some amillennialists believe that the ‘millennial’ reign refers to the influence of the Church in the world. This period [the millennium of Revelation 20, a definite but unrevealed period of time] extends from the ascension of Jesus Christ until His return, His Second Coming, in power and glory. [The chaining of Satan in Revelation 20 is a symbolic representation of this limitation on the power of Satan.] Amillennialists in general recognize that the Church on earth has and will always undergo tribulation, as Jesus Christ promised:

John 16:33, KJV
33. These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Some amillennialists believe that this tribulation will increase in intensity as the return of Jesus Christ approaches [Matthew 24]. Amillennialist believe that the Church is present during this period. To bring this tribulation to an end Jesus Christ returns with the souls of the deceased Saints. Many who hold the amillennialist view also believe that there will be a large scale conversion of the Jews prior to the return of Jesus Christ.

The glorious return of our Lord Jesus Christ will be accompanied by the trumpet of God and the shout of the archangel [Matthew 24:31; 1 Corinthians 15:51,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:16; and Revelation 11:15-18]. At this time the dead in Christ will be resurrected [rise first], the living believers will be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye and both groups will meet Jesus Christ in the air [where the resurrected bodies will reunite with their souls] and accompany Him to the earth. There will be a resurrection of those who died without Jesus Christ as Saviour, followed by the Great White Throne judgment [Matthew 25:31-46, Revelation 20:11-15]. Satan, whose power has been limited by the victory of Jesus Christ over death [Hebrews 2:14, 1 John 3:8, Matthew 12:28-29], and his followers will be cast into the lake of fire. The new heaven and new earth will be created wherein dwelleth righteousness [Isaiah 65:17; 66:22; 2 Peter 3:10-13; Revelation 21:1]. There are many expositors who believe that rather than a completely new creation the heavens and earth will be restored to the purity with which they were originally created. [See Andrew Hoekema’s The Bible and the Future, Chapter 20.] This new creation and the life of the redeemed with God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are gloriously described in Revelation 21-22.

Amillennialists in general believe that the Old Testament promises not fulfilled in the Church will be fulfilled in the new heaven and new earth. Hoekema discusses the implications of this belief in The Bible and the Future. It must be noted at this time that reference to the one thousand year period occurs only in Revelation 20. The glorious kingdom promised by God to His people in the Old Testament was to last forever, not one thousand years.

 

OldRegular,

Amen! Preach it!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Yes, please.

 

Here is a list of lots of Christian sites:
http://www.geocities.com/christiancounterpoint/message_boards.htm

Here is Christian Counterpoint
a hotbed of Mystic Christians
http://p197.ezboard.com/fchristiancounterpointfrm2

HEre is the topic i started:

The Second Advent: spiritual or physical?

[ December 07, 2004, 08:41 PM: Message edited by: Ed Edwards ]

 

DeafPosttrib

I have thoroughly enjoyed your posts. They are well thought out and make use of Scripture. I like that. It is also encouraging to have someone who will vigorously defend the amillennial viewpoint.

 

I find it quite comical that the nondispies tell us dispies what we believe. What is even more comical is that you all don't have a clue.

Oldreg, premill was the dominant theology of the fathers. It wasn't until Origen (a heretic) introduced a new way of looking at Scripture did amill theology even come around. Then, it wasn't until Augustine interpreted revelation with a newspaper that he went all whacko.

I only believe in one people of God. I am a dispy. Will you please throw away your failed ideas? Amill is for those too careless to actually look at the text.

 

Amen, Brother David Daniel -- Preach it!

Please Brother Daniel David, his name is "OldRegular".
Please refer to him as "OldRegular". Thank you for
giving consideration to my request.
BTW, we would
both be better off if we didn't refer to other posters
at all (but it usually is shorter).

 

Daniel David or can I just call you DD since we are on first name basis?

I agree that covenant or historic premillennialism, which ever you prefer, was taught by some early church fathers. However dispensationalism is an invention by John Darby in the early 19th Century and was popularized by the Scofield Bible.

As for what dispensationalists believe perhaps you need to read the works of some of their theologians.

Lewis Sperry Chafer, former president of Dallas Theological Seminary writes in his book, Dispensationalism: “The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved, which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.”

Charles C. Ryrie, professor at DTS in his book Dispensationalism writes about the above statement [page 39]: “This is probably the most basic theological test of whether or not a person is a dispensationalist, and it is undoubtedly the most practical and conclusive. The one who fails to distinguish Israel and the Church consistently will inevitably not hold to dispensational distinctives; and the one who does will.”

John F. Walvoord, former Chancellor at DTS, writes [Major Bible Prophecies, page 282]: The concept that the church is distinct from Israel is a part of dispensational truth that distinguishes the work of God in the Old Testament under the Mosaic Law, the work of God in the present age as he calls out both Jews and Gentiles to form the church as the body of Christ, and the millennial kingdom in which the saints of all ages participate in various ways but maintain their individual and corporate identity. Hence, the church will be raptured or resurrected, and will reign with Christ in the millennial kingdom, but the saved of Israel as well as the saved of the Gentiles who are not part of the church will also be part of the millennial kingdom. Distinguishing the church from saints of other periods that precede or follow the present age is essential to a correct answer on the pretribulational issue. It is not too much to say that the doctrine of the church, or ecclesiology, determines this aspect of eschatology.”

Heh! perhaps you are not a dispensationalist after all since you apparently do not agree with these three preeminent dispensational theologians. Great! Don't you feel better now?

 

Sorry Ed, those do nothing to prove your point. Show me an a-mill theologian who doesn't believe in a literal/physical return. I'll settle for a church pastor.

Here is what I had in mind, not a message board:


Kenneth Kanzer (1987)
"Amillennialists do not believe in a literal thousand-year earthly reign of Christ following his return to Earth. The kingdom of God is viewed as both a present reality and a future hope. The kingdom began with Christ's birth and will be consummated at his Second Coming. As such, amillennialists distinguish between and inaugurated eschatology and a future eschatology. As far as the thousand years mentioned Revelation 20 are concerned, amillennialists believe we are now in the millennium. The souls of all believers who have died are now living and reigning with Christ in heaven. The resurrection of both believers and unbelievers will occur at Christ's return to Earth. In terms of the future, the Second Coming will be a single event rather that a series of events -- the Rapture, a period of tribulation, and the return of Christ -- understood by premillennialists. Believers who are alive will be transformed and glorified, meeting Christ in the air and then returning to Earth with Christ. At this point, the final judgment will send those who have rejected Christ to hell. Believers will enter into everlasting glory on the new earth. Heaven and the new earth will then be one." ("Our Future Hope: Eschatology and Its Role in the Church," Christianity Today 31: 7-I)

 

Good quote Grasshopper!

 

I'm sorry Grasshopper.
I work or go to work for 50 hours a week
and have family responsibilites and really
am not now working on a Dr. of Divinity (DD)
degree. I'll not be working on your suggested
doctorial disertation for you.

If it makes you fell better, i am of
the baseless opinion shared by
nobody, that there are are mystic Christians
who are mystic about the Millinnial Kingdom
who are also mystic about the
Second Coming.

Play be not the fool, God is NOT mocked.
God knows when we are expressing
unfounded opinions (and shares with His
own).

 

50 hours aweek? And you still have time to post a few hundred times a week on more than one message board? But you don't have time to find ONE example of an A-Mill theologian or pastor who doesn't believe in a literal/physical return of Christ?

At least you admit your view is baseless.

 

http://web.princeton.edu/sites/chapel/112303.htm

Thats how this sermon starts. We are partaking in the work of bringing in the kingdom. That is the real problem, not that a-mils may or may not believe Jesus will literally come back, but that we will somehow bring about the kingdom ourselves before He does. The man preaching this sermon could care less if Jesus is coming back or not, because he is too busy bringing in the kingdom.

The second coming is happening now, don't you see? Whether or not Jesus will literally come back when we are done bringing in the kingdom is not the point. His coming is spiritualized, in the sense that it is being perpetrated by the church over however long it takes the church to finish His second coming.