A Mother Defines Sin...

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by TCGreek, Oct 11, 2007.

  1. TCGreek

    TCGreek
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2006
    Messages:
    7,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    1. Susanna Wesley borne nineteen children, including John and Charles Wesley. One day John asked her to define sin. The following is her definition of sin:

    "Son, whatever weakens your reasoning, impairs the tenderness of your conscience, obscures your sense of God, or takes away your relish for spiritual things; in short, if anything increases the authority and power of the flesh over the Spirit, then that to you becomes sin, however good it is in itself."

    2. I don't know if John Wesley (would later become a theologian himself) got all of that, but Mrs Wesley was some theologian.
     
  2. Allan

    Allan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    6,888
    Likes Received:
    0
    I must say, that is a great statement set forth by his mother about what sin is.

    Where did you find that quote TCG?
     
  3. TCGreek

    TCGreek
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2006
    Messages:
    7,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    Oh, I got it from Ravi Zacharias lastest book The Grand Weaver, an excellent read.
     
  4. Bro. Williams

    Bro. Williams
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2007
    Messages:
    1,126
    Likes Received:
    0
    I can't help but relate her quote to the "wine" thread....
     
  5. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    If that statement is true...any medication with impairment side effects...even sickness itself would be considered sin. I think I'll let Scripture define sin...and not Mrs. Wesley.
     
  6. Allan

    Allan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    6,888
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think you lost her point brother. You seemed to have stopped at the word 'impaired' and left the rest alone. Look at the in context which is set forth specifically in her conclusion of "in short..." (which pulls it all together).

    Editted in --> She is not redefining sin, but elaborating on the heart of the one which is in or will sin and why. I see nothing unbiblical in her laymans responce regarding sin.
     
    #6 Allan, Oct 13, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 13, 2007
  7. TCGreek

    TCGreek
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2006
    Messages:
    7,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    Webdog,

    You know better than to just choose a word or a phrase without considering the context of those words.
     
  8. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    "Son, whatever weakens your reasoning, impairs the tenderness of your conscience, obscures your sense of God, or takes away your relish for spiritual things; in short, if anything increases the authority and power of the flesh over the Spirit, then that to you becomes sin, however good it is in itself."

    How does this hold up to someone with cancer? I did not stop at a word, and I didn't take anything out of context, to my knowledge. If the pain from cancer weakens your reasoning...impairs the tenderness of the conscience...obscures your sense of God...or takes away the relish for spiritual things...then cancer is sin?
     
  9. Bro. James Reed

    Bro. James Reed
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2002
    Messages:
    2,992
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hmmm, that's an interesting point.

    Of course, I would say that cancer is an evidence of sin. If we had no sin, we'd have no cancer. But, since cancer demonstrates to others that we have sin, is it in itself a sin?

    In any event, I can't wait for heaven, that way we won't have to ponder such things.
     
  10. TCGreek

    TCGreek
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2006
    Messages:
    7,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    Notice you said, "If the pain from cancer weakens your reasoning." According to your own words cancer should not be considered a sin.
     
  11. Hopeful

    Hopeful
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2007
    Messages:
    642
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ouch. This hurt, since I myself had cancer and my mother died from it. Please clarify if you are saying that cancer is an evidence of sin IN GENERAL (the fact that this is a sin-filled world)....or if it is an evidence of MY sin (or my mother's) in particular??

    Obviously, I'm not saying I never sinned -- I just want to understand your statement. Because if you believe my cancer was an evidence of MY sin, then would that mean that those Christians who never develop cancer do not sin? Was my cancer a "scarlet letter" God sent to mark me in particular....or the general result of sickness and sin being in this fallen world?
     
  12. TCGreek

    TCGreek
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2006
    Messages:
    7,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm sure that we all agree that because of the Fall of man sin and consequently diseases of all kind have entered the world, reminding us of the horror of sin.
     
  13. mcdirector

    mcdirector
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    8,292
    Likes Received:
    10
    Echoing Brother TC, Hopeful, cancer, migraines, chronic back pain, etc are evidence of sin in general due to the fall, not particular sin.
     
  14. Bro. James Reed

    Bro. James Reed
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2002
    Messages:
    2,992
    Likes Received:
    0
    Cancer runs in my family as well. My mother had skin cancer several years ago. My grandmothers and one grandfather all had cancer. Cancer is an evil in this world that is the result of man being a sinful creature, and therefore, susceptible to sickness and ultimately death.

    Not all Christians will develop cancer, but we all will die one day. Cancer, like death, is just another evidence that we have sin within us.

    My question then becomes, is having cancer a sin since it outwardly shows others of our sinful condition? You can insert numerous other diseases there. This would mainly, I suppose, be true of those who have abused their bodies through various means, casuing themselves to develop lung cancer, heart disease, scirrosis of the liver, and other such diseases that are many times caused by our sinful lifestyles. Would causing ourselves to get cancer through years of smoking be a sin? What about heart disease from over eating? Scirrosis from alcoholism? I think you all see what I'm getting at.

    Having cancer, in my opinion, can most definitely be a sin. Just like my other examples above.

    We cause ourselves much grief and pain when we sin. I don't understand why sin feels so good at the time, when we know it leads to destruction in so many forms. Yet, I am a sinner, and, like Paul, can do nothing but ask God to delivery me from my own sinful flesh.
     
  15. TCGreek

    TCGreek
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2006
    Messages:
    7,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    Should the cancer within us be construed as a payment for the sin within us? What are you really saying on this matter? I really don't want to misrepresent you.
     
  16. Hopeful

    Hopeful
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2007
    Messages:
    642
    Likes Received:
    0
    I guess that's what I was asking as well. I'm wanting to know if some see the visible scar on my neck where my thyroid gland was removed as a "scarlet letter" representing MY sin.

    It is, of course, obvious that ALL illness--cancer included--is a result of sin entering the world IN GENERAL. And, just as obvious, if one abuses one's own body by introducing chemicals into it that can cause irreparable harm, or overeats to the point of causing obesity and heart problems, that is an example of an "outward sign" of our own PERSONAL sin, poor choices, etc.

    But I don't believe it's as easy to "pin a sin" on me or most people with cancer....I know of nothing that would have caused my particular cancer. I know of nothing my mother did to cause her breast cancer that finally overtook her entire body and caused brain tumors before she died. And I don't think her cancer or my cancer was a particular punishment rained down upon us by God for our particular sins. I think they were/are the by-product of living in this fallen world.
     
  17. mcdirector

    mcdirector
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    8,292
    Likes Received:
    10
    There isn't a one-to-one corollary. There is the guy who gets lung cancer who smoked 2 packs a day. That seems obvious. But there is also the guy who did the same thing that dies of old age in his sleep. And we all know the young mom (or at least of her) who gets lung cancer who never smoked a cigarette.

    I only buy the general idea - with some specifics thrown in. Illness abounds because of the fall. Some get sicker than others. I don't have chronic migraines because of my sin. I've got crummy wiring somewhere.

    Surely there is some poor phrasing somewhere in James' post that makes it read this way.
     
  18. TCGreek

    TCGreek
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2006
    Messages:
    7,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well put. :thumbs:
     
  19. TCGreek

    TCGreek
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2006
    Messages:
    7,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think Mcdirector's post is a solid response to the whole issue.
     
  20. Hopeful

    Hopeful
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2007
    Messages:
    642
    Likes Received:
    0
    Agreed and thanks.

    Sorry to make such an issue of it in the first place. I'm a little "testy" lately.
    :wavey:
     

Share This Page

Loading...