Featured A passage in which many struggle

Not even close. Even when I was solidly in the non-cal camp, I had no problem with either title, perserverence or preservation. We, as christians, will persevere through any trouble or trial that satan throws at us because we are firmly in His grasp. Plus, we are preserved in Him, too. I have no problem with either. I am eternally secured, and I will perservere, because I am held in His grasp.

 

Nope. Not even remotely close, Brother Wes. We persevere only because we have God to hold us up. Nothing that satan throws our way will cause us to slip through His fingers.

From wikipedia:

I agree that no one who is saved will turn their back and walk away. And nothing that satan throws at them will cause them to lose the christianity. Now, satan may cause us to stumble, but we will never fall, because He will hold us up, and also lift us up when we stumble.

 

Here's the way I see it:

. God sanctifies someone
. He gives them faith, and in doing so, it sets their will free to choose to come to Him.
. He crushes their stony heart, plants His Seed, and sends workers to water that seed to grow, but He gives the increase.
. He then saves them when they come to Him in faith.

So, you have sanctification, justification, repentance, and salvation, and His hands all over it. It's 100% Him, and 0% man.

 

Man has a role in the salvation of man, maybe not their own salvation except as Spurgeon said here.

"I have laid stress upon a personal appropriation, for each man eats for himself, not for anyone else. You cannot eat
for anybody but yourself. And so, in taking Christ, you take Him for yourself. Faith is your own act and deed—nobody
can believe for you, nor can you savingly believe for another. I say it with reverence—the Holy Spirit, Himself, cannot
believe for us, although He can, and does, lead us to believe. And, indeed, if the Divine Spirit did believe for us, we should
not obtain the promise, since it is not made to proxy faith, but solely and alone to personal believing. We are not passive."

If i am in the deepest part of Africa and no one brings me the message I will not be saved by God at all. It will be 100% nobody in my salvation.

Moses would of done nothing without the burning bush, Abraham without the Angel (messenger) of the Lord would of done nothing.

1 Corinthians 3
The Church and Its Leaders

3 Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans? 4 For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere human beings?

5 What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow. 7 So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8 The one who plants and the one who waters have one purpose, and they will each be rewarded according to their own labor. 9 For we are co-workers in God’s service; you are God’s field, God’s building.

Do you think God makes the seed we plant and water grow? What happens if we don't plant and water? To say man does nothing is wrong we play a big role as messengers of the work God did.

Ezekiel 3:
18 When I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade them from their evil ways in order to save their life, that wicked person will die for their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. 19 But if you do warn the wicked person and they do not turn from their wickedness or from their evil ways, they will die for their sin; but you will have saved yourself.

20 “Again, when a righteous person turns from their righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before them, they will die. Since you did not warn them, they will die for their sin. The righteous things that person did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. 21 But if you do warn the righteous person not to sin and they do not sin, they will surely live because they took warning, and you will have saved yourself.”

22 The hand of the Lord was on me there, and he said to me, “Get up and go out to the plain, and there I will speak to you.” 23 So I got up and went out to the plain. And the glory of the Lord was standing there, like the glory I had seen by the Kebar River, and I fell facedown.

24 Then the Spirit came into me and raised me to my feet. He spoke to me and said: “Go, shut yourself inside your house. 25 And you, son of man, they will tie with ropes; you will be bound so that you cannot go out among the people. 26 I will make your tongue stick to the roof of your mouth so that you will be silent and unable to rebuke them, for they are a rebellious people. 27 But when I speak to you, I will open your mouth and you shall say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says.’ Whoever will listen let them listen, and whoever will refuse let them refuse; for they are a rebellious people.

James 5:
19 My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, 20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

James 3

3 Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. 2 We all stumble in many ways. Anyone who is never at fault in what they say is perfect, able to keep their whole body in check.



I believe treasures in heaven are people God used us to touch with His message. They will never spoil go bad they will be eternal.

 

Willis, I've heard you testimony and frankly I think you are looking at it wrong and with a presumption of Calvinism to try to explain how you had a change of heart. This is no easy matter to figure out all God's ways, but maybe a little reminder of how I see God changing my heart and giving me faith may allow you to see it in a different light than having to have faith "forcefully implanted" against your free will or better said "volition":

God gave me faith because I declared with my mouth that I loved the Truth, (Rom 10:9). But, God didn’t give the gift of faith to me as in replacing my mind or as if I was robot unable to respond, He gave it to me by influencing me until I made that (“true”) choice to believe in love of the truth as He revealed it. Therefore God gets ALL the credit for my salvation and ALL the glory is His! God’s way in the world is judgment (Deut 32:4) and every person that has that ability to respond, (Rom 1:20) will be responsible to do so.

It took me 35 years before I came to God asking Him to speak to me and show me His Way for me to live in this world and know true Love. During that preceding time I cursed Him, screamed in rage at Him and used His Name in vain, but I was too proud to live my life in the world by any other way than mine.

When I was finally broken enough to come to Him in tears and ask for His guidance in my life while admitted my way wasn’t working and never would – it was then, or I should say, shortly after that I received the gift of faith. (The first part of my coming to Him is why I look at the doctrines of Prevenient Grace as describing a kind of grace before the gift of sylvatic Grace through faith.) BUT, let me make it perfectly clear, God didn’t just hand me the faith, or replace my mind, He continued influenced me with the truth and as I loved Him for His truths I came to faith FROM MY OWN MIND.

The night I came to God in tears all I basically felt at first was a strange unexplainable sense of peace like I had never known. It was the next morning, being sincere about wanting to know Him that I picked up a Bible that someone had given me years before and started to find out more about God that I truly came to faith. You see, as per the Biblical order, first I heard, God began talking to me through those Words, showing me that He is Truth. You see, I had asked God to speak to me while telling Him I didn’t know how I could ever hear Him. AND when I picked up that Bible which I knew absolutely nothing about I shortly came to the Words in John 1 talking about the Word being there in the beginning, the light unto all the world, but the world wouldn't receive Him, but as many as DID receive Him and whatnot, and then I happened to turn to Mathew and read the promise of ask, seek, knock on the door and for everyone that ask, seeks knocks – receives. HIS WORD IS TRUE!!!! (Maybe God guided me to pick up that Bible and maybe, I'd say most likely, He guided my hands to turn to the right pages so I could hear Him as I asked) At that moment I realized that “I” had asked and low and behold!!! true to His Word “I” received and that my friend was the free gift of Grace through the gift of faith!!! I knew God was Truth, He continued speaking to me and "my" faith grew! I received a new heart, one of faith, because "I" love the Truth - true to the promises in His Words (John 3:16).


Yes, God gets 100% of the credit! - I never could have come to Him without the... lets call it "Prevenient Grace" that He bestowed upon me (Rom 1:20). I was not "SPECIAL" in any way, I wasn't preselected to respond, I was prejudged and found guilty like everyone else. There was nothing in me, by my own will, that I would have come to Him on my own, apart from His influence. I have no pride in coming to God, I died to my self, to my ways, how can that be a prideful thing or something that I feel that I earned??? I came to God in shame, broken and in despair and from "my" heart asked for the truth - God (Providentially) judged my response to His influences and gave me more truth - I loved the Truth came to faith and He forgave my sinful ways and saved me!

 

Brother Willis,

Perseverance of the saints is more than just being eternally secure in Christ. The once-saved-always-saved (OSAS) label is rooted in antinomianism (anti=no or against; nomos=law; i.e. no law). This type of antinomianism believes that once the individual makes their decision to "accept Christ" their salvation is secure no matter what happens in their life. They can go so far as to even repudiate their faith, but since they trusted in Jesus as their Savior they cannot be lost. This is what Paul wrote against in Romans 6. Not everyone on the free will side actually believes that, but enough do to make OSAS, at a minimum, an imprecise term.

Perseverance of the saints describes not only the security of the new birth, but the progressive sanctification of the believer. In spite of temptation and sin the believer will persevere in their faith because of Christ. Christ is building His Church (Matthew 16:18), not only in numbers, but in holiness (i.e. becoming more like Christ; Philippians 1:6).

 

Willis

Like I said above, the Calvinist system for perseverance of the saints is not the same as eternal security or once saved always saved straight from one of the horses mouths, and is based on WORKS.

Calvinism begins by telling you that your salvation is all of God, there is no free will, man has absolutely no involvement, not in repentance, not in calling on the name of the Lord, not in faith, but yet after salvation it is a matter of demonstrating that God actually elected you by a constant show of works. If at any time you get discouraged because of life's trials, or even as Peter did, denied Christ, the Calvinist would argue that you nor Peter were ever saved in the first place.

If a Calvinist were around Peter, he would have claimed that Peter was not saved. Then the Calvinist would have reaffirmed his belief that Peter was saved once Peter picked up the ball again. But then in Acts 10, Peter is found arguing with God about pork. There goes his salvation again. Oh but then he comes back to God by preaching to Cornelius. But then Peter loses his salvation again when compelling others to be circumcised in Galations 2.

When a person gets saved, just what exactly did God save them FROM? For the Calvinist, Christ did not forgive all their sins because the evidence that proves they are saved is a consistent demonstration of a pattern of works that which, if NOT demonstrated, shows one was never saved.

Are there sins that have more or less weight after salvation? Just how far does a person have to go before they can know that they have conquered all of their sinful habits and thoughts? Or does God simply overlook the Calvinists sins but keeps it a secret from them how far they have progressed? No Calvinist can say that in the next 10 minutes they will not sin. They can not say that in a year from, a loved one will not die and they will become bitter and angry at God. What then is the believers assurance of salvation based on? The Calvinist can not say that salvation is all of God, and that assurance is based on works, and be consistent with their theology.

Now the Calvinist will claim that it is God that causes you to persevere, but if it is God that causes you to persevere, then why can't He prevent you from ever backsliding in the same way that He irresistibly saved you? You mean God overcomes your will to save you, but doesn't overcome your will to prevent you from sinning afterwards? The Calvinist at this point MUST apply a libertarian view of freedom to justify backsliding which conflicts with their view of compatibilist freedom in salvation. This deprives the Calvinist of ever knowing FOR SURE that they are saved and causes a constant guessing game as to their election and will always cause any honest Calvinist to constantly question whether they have or will do enough to prove that God truly caused them to persevere.

And no Paul was not against OSAS. Paul told the Galations about the law, "Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" Gal 3:3. Herald's view here is actually more in line with Arminianism:

"Unbeknown to me, Lance had begun reading some “radical” eternal security books that taught cheap grace, easy believeism, and antinomianism." From Arminian Today.

The accusation that OSAS is derived from antinomianism is also the position of the popular Arminian apologist, Dan Corner. It is also the position of the Seventh Day Adventists.

So just let that sink in on how inconsistent Calvinists are in their theology and accusations.

 

Getting the cart before the horse once again

Why did God sanctify someone? Through faith in the truth? 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

When God sanctifies someone, does He not set them apart in Christ?

Are we not born anew after we are baptized into Christ, undergo the circumcision of Christ and arise in Christ a new creation?

Are we not transferred from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of the Son of God? Colossians 1:13 Is this not being set apart in Christ, the sanctification by the Spirit, who baptizes us into Christ.

When we are born anew, in Christ, are we not at least spiritually children of God?

When were we given the right to become children of God? The answer is when we were put spiritually in Christ, i.e. sanctified.

Thus John 1:12-13 teaches we have faith before we are given the right, i.e. transferred into Christ spiritually, to become children of God.

So the correct order is:

1) God credits someone's faith as righteousness.
2) God transfers the person into Christ spiritually.
3) God removes the heart of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh and removes the body of flesh,i.e. the sin burden.
4) We arise in Christ a new creation, born anew from above.
5) We are sealed forever with the Holy Spirit as a pledge to our adoption as children of God, our physical resurrection.

 

Preach it brother, spoken like a real reformed, or a calvinist!

 

I addressed John 6:28-30, showing the question was what do we need to do, and the answer was believe in God, and then they asked for a sign so they could believe. The premise that the work of God refers to Irresistible Grace is simply without support in scripture. The work God requires is the correct understanding of the phrase. Even Dr. Wallace agrees. Most translation stick with the ambiguous "work of God" but several go with the NET viewpoint, including Mounce Reverse Interlinear, CEV, GNT, and the Knox translation. No translation translates it as "this is the work God does" None, zip.

I provided how "en" is being translated as through, and your evidence, including the "by implication instrumentality" supports the translation of en as through, i.e. by agency of.

I provided the passage, 1 Thessalonians 4:3-8 as the classic reference for progressive sanctification.

Finally Colossians 1:13 does not say Christ transfers us, it says God transfers us into His Son's Kingdom.

Bottom line John 6 provides absolute no actual support for Calvinism, and only Calvinists struggle with it to make it conform to their man made doctrine. They try to turn the work men must do, i.e. believe, into the work God must do. Good golly Miss Molly.

 

Hi Agedman,
1) We agree that "the work of God" is a fair and accurate translation. The issue is what does the phrase mean. You say it means the work God does, and I say it means the work God requires we do. To point to the ambiguous phrase and claim it means the opposite of what the hearers though is absurd. We have been all through this. I showed several translations, including the NET which translates as I understand it, you can provide no translation that translates it the way you understand it, none, zip, nada.

2) No, Strong's supports the view of the NASB translators, I quoted the support and so far you have not seemed to grasp it. Let me post it again:

I provided how "en" is being translated as through, and your evidence, including the "by implication instrumentality" supports the translation of en as through, i.e. by agency of. Instrumentality means that something, the instrument, was used to accomplish something. Thus the choosing was accomplished by the sanctification by the Spirit.
En is translated as "through" dozens of times, and for you to deny it is absurd.

3) I did not use Colossians 1:13 to support translating en as through. You indicated sanctification means something happening statically, with no change in location, and I said, no, to sanctify means to set apart, and then you denied any verse says we were transported.
Post 28 quotes Agedman saying God does not transport, and I respond with Colossians 1:13.

Yes, I repeated parts of my posts to restate the truth, as this one does too. When someone posts falsehood, or in my opinion falsehood, I try to correct the record. Note that Yeshua1 quoted your argument again, repeating the falsehoods (in my opinion) and thus I repeated my truths (in my opinion).

Repeating an argument does not make it true, and if someone else repeats it, it still is not true, so a rebuttal is appropriate.

Now, you made several mistakes, and I have corrected them, but will you acknowledge en can be translated correctly as through? No. Will you acknowledge, God transports people from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His Son? No. Will you acknowledge that the vague and ambiguous phrase, the work of God means, in John 6:29, the work God requires? No. Will you acknowledge sanctification has two meanings, (1) to set something apart, and (2) to make something holy.

You like Strong's, lets see what it says: The word, G38, is the noun form of the verb "hagiazō" (G37) which means to "separate from profane things and dedicate to God." Thus sanctification (2 Thessalonians 2:13) or sanctifying (1 Peter 1:1-2) refers to being set apart in Christ, being transferred from the realm of darkness into the Kingdom of His Son.

 

How do scholars who understood Greek interpret this verse?

None of these scholars (who were Calvinists by the way) agree with Agedman's interpretation.

 

Yep, Clarke got it exactly right. God's work is to influence and He does so in Truth, that we may respond in love of that Truth and that is the acceptable (true) purpose of His work. It is according to His will that we respond to the evidence set before us and yield to the truth, that is what He works for in truth. Otherwise He would be working for something that is meaningless, being already predetermined, how ridiculous to suggest God works for what He already has!

 

Do you really think anyone will agree with you?

I do not care for commentaries myself, I only showed these comments to show how these Greek scholars understood the "work of God". All of these men understood this scripture to apply to the listeners, Jesus was telling them if they wanted to do a work that would please God, then they should believe on him.

I realize you will continue to hold to your view, but nobody agrees with you.

As I and others said before, the response of the people shows how they understood Jesus's answer, they all asked for a sign that they might believe. This absolutely refutes your view whether you accept it or not.

Reality is not determined by what you believe, but by truth. You could believe an old rotten wooden bridge is safe to drive over, but if you are wrong the bridge will collapse and you will fall to your death. Your belief does not make the bridge safe.

 

Henry, Gill, and Barnes did not agree with you, they all understood this scripture to say that Jesus told them they must believe to do the work of God.

You just keep on telling yourself you are right. I am not going to waste my time arguing with you.