a question for all premillenialists

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by deacon jd, Sep 2, 2006.

  1. deacon jd

    deacon jd
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    I have a question for all the pretribs and midtribs out there. If the rapture takes place before or during the tribulation period, then what about Matthew 24:29-31? Immediaely after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:(v30)and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the trives of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.(v31)and he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. This is plainly talking about the rapture of the church it has all the same elements that are mentioned in rapture in 1 Thess. 4 16-17( the appearing of Jesus in the clouds, the gathering of his saints, and the trump of God.) I am looking forward to hearing any comments on this portion of the word of God.
     
  2. Clean1

    Clean1
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    First of all the Great Tribulation is the wrath of God being poured out upon the earth and its inhabiters who rejected Jesus Christ as their personal saviour.
    The saints will be raptured out before the Great Tribulation.
    Here is an some information from www.wayoflife.org:
    "The church is not mentioned during the Tribulation period. The church is mentioned 19 times in the first three chapters of Revelation, but not again until 22:16. Israel comes back onto center stage during the Tribulation (Re. 7:3-8; 11:3-13; 12:13) because this is the seventieth week of Daniel (Da. 9:24-27)."
    Take a look at 1 Thess. 5:9, "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"
    Also Revelation 3:10, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."
    Here is an excerpt from the KJV Study Bible:
    "3:10. This verse presents a promise that Christ will rapture genuine believers out or the world before the Tribulation peiod begins. The hour of tempation is the period of worldwide testing which has not yet occurred (cf. Dan.12:1, Matt. 24:21,29). Christ promises to keep them from (Gr. ek, "out of") the period of the Tribulation. That is, they will not even enter into this period of history. The Tribulation is for teh prupose of trying or judging them that dwell upon the earth, those who are conneted to the earth and its system. Believers are not even included in this term (cf. Phil. 3:18-20; 1 Pet. 2:11; Rev. 6:10; 11:10; 13:8,12,14; 17:8)"
    I hope that this helps you.
     
  3. deacon jd

    deacon jd
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    reply to Clean 1

    You still have not dealt with the scripture passage mentioned and I have never heard a premillenialist deal with it.
     
  4. tinytim

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    The elect during the tribulation... the ones that were saved during it, and Israel (the 144,000).

    They would have not been saved at the rapture, so here they go up.
     
  5. deacon jd

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    reply to tinytim

    Thats the first time I have heard of two raptures, how many more are there?
     
  6. Brother Bob

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    Who hath warned thee to flee from the wrath of God which is to come? First Baptist preacher said they would not be here.
     
  7. FERRON BRIMSTONE

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    Mat 24:31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


    Notice it says from one end of "heaven to the other" not earth.

    Where are they gathered too? Christ, who has just returned to earth to set up his earthly reign of 1000 yrs.

    Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


    This is not the rapture, but the beginning of the millenial reign.
     
  8. Clean1

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    I'm sorry for being so stupid, deacon jd. I thought that your question pertained to the rapture of the church before, during, or after the trib. My mistake.
    Now that I understand what you are asking I would have to agree with FERRON BRIMESTONE.
     
    #8 Clean1, Sep 2, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 2, 2006
  9. Ed Edwards

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    Right now, if Jesus comes before the
    Tribulation Period starts, there would be 200 Million PLUS
    raptures.

    God is one rapturing type God! :thumbs:

    * the 200 Million figure was established by vote of the Baptist
    Board in 2003. 200 Million is one-tenth of the 2,000 Million
    (2 Billion) nominal Christians alive on earth today.
    Whilst the number of people raptured at the pretribulation
    rapture is NOT established by the eschatologicaly
    interested members of the Bapist Board - that membership
    does include a lot of folks I think will make it into
    heaven by the grace of God in Christ.

    If the Antichrist is other than a bumbling baffon -
    there will be no more than 20,000 survivers of the
    Tribulation Period who are NOT Jews protected in the
    wilderness by God. So I predict 20,000 people raptured
    (given new bodies while still alive) at the postribualtion
    resurrection/rapture.
     
  10. Ed Edwards

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    Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

    0. church age continues <== you are here!
    1. rapture/resurrection event
    2. Tribulation time
    3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    4. literal MK=millennial kingdom
    5. new heaven & new earth

    The time line according to Matthew 24
    (Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25,
    Mark 13, Luke 21):

    0. church age continues <== you are here!
    Matthew 24:4-15

    1. rapture/resurrection event
    Matthew 24:31-44

    2. Tribulation time
    Matthew 24:21-28

    3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    Matthew 24:29-30)

    Not mentioned in Matthew 24:
    (4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
    (5. new heaven & new earth)

    The time line according to Revelation:

    0. church age continues - Rev 2-3 <== you are here!
    1. rapture/resurrection event - Rev 4:1 (type)
    2. Tribulation time - Rev 4:2-19:10
    3. Second Advent of Jesus event - Rev 19:11-21
    4. literal MK=millennial kingdom - Rev 20:1-6
    5. new heaven & new earth - Rev 20:7-22:5

    The time line according to 2 Thessalonians 2:

    0. church age continues <== you are here!
    (implied, until the falling away)

    1. rapture/resurrection
    v.1 - gathering together unto him
    v.3 - falling away

    2. Tribulation time
    (time of the man of sin)

    3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    v.1 - coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
    v.8

    Not mentioned:
    (4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
    (5. new heaven & new earth)

    BTW, I believed in the pre-tribulation rapture/resurrection
    before i saw these three scriptures as pretrib.
    So even if you can prove all three of these scriptures
    in error, I'll still hope in the pre-tribulation rapture
    as will 90% of Baptists and kindred Christians.
     
  11. Ed Edwards

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    In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
    ask three questions:

    (in the order asked):
    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    3. What is the sign of the end of age?

    Jesus answers these questions in
    Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
    some parables.

    Here are the answers of Jesus in the
    order the questions were asked:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Matthew 24:4-14

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    Matthew 24:15-30

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    Matthew 24:31-44

    Here is a summary of the answers
    in the order in which events will occur:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Soon, it was in 70AD

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    No signs preceeding the end of the age

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    The Sign of His coming will be the
    Tribulation period.


    Recall the Greek language in which this
    Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
    did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
    So many ands, buts, and other connectors
    give the outline. 'Polysyndeton' is a retorical device that uses
    (in English) repeated connectors (usually 'and')
    instead of an outline. This is most noticable
    in the Bible in Genesis 1 and Matthew 24.
    I believe the major outline to be:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Matthew 24:4-14

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    Matthew 24:15-30

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    Matthew 24:31-44

    The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
    Rapture/resurrection which ends the
    current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
    last days, etc.)

    Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
    church age even up to this time.
    Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
    The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
    that the church age continues.
     
  12. Ed Edwards

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    Here you go:

    FIVE Resurrections:

    ----------------------------------
    \o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

    \o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

    Five Resurrections
    Found in the Holy Bible
    Compared and Contrasted

    The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

    Definitions:

    New Testament: God's contract on goy
    Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
    Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
    Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
    Tribulation: AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
    --Yisrael passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
    --Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
    --Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
    Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
    goy - Yisraeli term for gentiles (probably slightly derogotory)
    Yisrael - Transliteration of the Hebrew term for "Israel" into English.

    How to get on God's list:

    Romans 10:9 (KJV): That if thou
    shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
    believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
    the dead, thou shalt be saved.



    1. Resurrection of Jesus
    WHO: Jesus
    WHEN: 33AD
    WHERE: Jerusalem
    WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
    resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
    are possible
    References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8


    2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
    WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believeing God, especially
    those who believed in God's Messiah
    WHEN: 33AD
    WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
    WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

    3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints
    WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
    of the Old Testament Saints
    WHEN: Some date after 3 Sept 2005;
    at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
    the Tribulation
    WHERE: Worldwide
    WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
    this resurrection is followed in but a
    moment by the translation of the living
    saints into a glorified heavenly body like
    that of Jesus
    References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

    4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints
    WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
    who reject the Mark of the Beast
    WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
    beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
    References: Revelation 20:4-6,

    5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
    WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
    WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
    at the beginning of eternity
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: i don't know, God does
    HOW: i don't know, God does
    WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
    References: Revelation 20:12-15

    NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
    resurrections above
    does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
    is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
    by his revelation to us or
    by our understaning of His revelation to us.
    For example: Two Witnesses shall
    be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.

    There is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
    for which the resurrection of Jesus was a precusor
    (numbered here as above):

    2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

    3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

    4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

    5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

    Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
    of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
    resurrections of the just preceede the resurrection
    of the unjust).

    The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
    resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
    Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
    in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
    cleary notes that the just are raised one day
    (a 1,000 year long day) before the unjust.

    CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarliy
    assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
    sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

    May Jesus our Savior and our Master be Praised!

    Note that ressurrections #2 and #3 are accompanied
    by a rapture of living saints.

    --compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque
    ----------------------------------

    This is an original writing of Ed. It has been posted
    elsewhere, but in topics with different participants.
     
  13. deacon jd

    deacon jd
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    reply to Ed Edwards(five resurrections)

    I had never heard of more than one rapture,but I have heard of more than one resurrection. I read your last entry and I noticed that all the scripture references you gave a from many different places in the Bible. I have studied this subject before and I have never found one verse or one passage that dealt with more than one resurrection and judgement, and it takes place on the last day.

    John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice;(v29) and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    This resurrection takes place in the same hour. Notice all of the dead come forth both righteous and wicked at his command.I would like to see one passage that mentions more than one resurrection or judgement in the single passage.
     
  14. Ed Edwards

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    Deacon JD: //I would like to see one passage that mentions more
    than one resurrection or judgement in the single passage.//

    There are none. God choose, for some reason unknown to us,
    not to put but one resurrection &/or judgement in one passage.
    However, as you can see from my evangelistic 5 resurrections
    document above, the who, where, when, how questions have
    variant answers. To me this shows a difference between the
    resurrections.

    Here is my 5 judgements document:

    -----------------------------------------
    Five Judgements

    The Lord God is a judging God

    "To judge" can mean three things in the Holy Bible:

    A. to discern between good and evil (human function)
    B. to condemn, usually falsely (human function)
    C. to reward the just & punish the evil (Godly function)

    The Five Judgements:

    1. Believers for SIN on the Cross
    WHO: All who will Believe
    WHEN: 33AD
    WHERE: Jerusalem
    WHY: The Lord God is a merciful God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

    How to get from judgement 1 to judgement 2
    (and avoid judgements 3, 4, or 5):

    Romans 10:9 (KJV): "That if thou
    shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
    believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
    the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    "

    2. Judgement Seat of Christ
    WHO: Believers for works
    WHEN: during the Great Tribulation on earth;
    Right after the Rapture/Resurrection that starts
    the Tribulation
    WHERE: Heaven
    WHY: to assign rewards (including
    the Millinnial Kingdom rest)
    to the redeemed for their good works
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

    3. Judgement of Yisrael under Antichrist
    (Ezekiel 22:17-22 Time of Jacob's Trouble; Ezekiel 20:34-38;
    Jeremiah 30:1-24; Revelation 6-19)
    WHO: Yisrael
    WHEN: during the Tribulation
    WHERE: earth
    WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises
    HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Great Tribulation

    4. Throne of His Glory judgement
    (AKA: Sheep and Goats judgement, Matthew 25:31-46,
    2 Cor 5:10, 1 Cor 3:11-15)
    WHO: the nations: the living survivers of the Great Tribulation
    (these people are NOT saved, they are human in human bodies)
    WHEN: after the Great Tribulation, before the Millennial Age
    WHERE: Jerusalem
    WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises: God will bless those
    who bless Yisrael and curse those who curse Yisrael
    HOW: Judged by their treatment of Yisrael
    WHAT: the cursed to Hell; the blessed to the Millennial Age

    5. Great White Throne judgement
    (Revelation 20:11:15)
    WHO: the wicked dead
    WHEN: after the Millennial Age; before endless ages
    WHERE: between Hell and the Lake of Fire
    WHY: The Lord God is not mocked
    HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: the Messiah rejectors consigned to endless punishment

    NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
    judgements above does not preclude other specific
    or general judgements. One place on the net i found
    a chart where TWENTY-FOUR judgements were delineated.
    The Lord God is a judging God and His hand is not shortened
    by His revelation to us nor
    by our understaning of His revelation to us.

    May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!

    --compilation by ed,
    incurable Jesus Phreaque
     
  15. Ed Edwards

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    Deacon JD: //Notice all of the dead come forth both righteous and wicked at his command.I would like to see one passage that mentions more than one resurrection or judgement in the single passage.//

    Your scripture John 5:28 does exactly what you request.
    Here is the count (note the COUNT is NOT in the scriptue):

    1. "resurrection of life"
    2. "resurrection of damnation"

    Even if they both happen the same milli-second, there are two
    different resurrections named. Revelation 20:5 shows
    these two resurrections to be 1,000 years apart.
     
  16. Ed Edwards

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    Deacon JD: //Notice all of the dead come forth both righteous
    and wicked at his command.I would like to see one passage
    that mentions more than one resurrection or judgement
    in the single passage.//

    Here is another passage that mentions two resurrections:

    Dan 12:1-3 (KJV1611 Edition):
    And at that time shall Michael stand vp, the great Prince
    which standeth for the children of thy people, and there shalbe
    a time of trouble, such as neuer was since there was a nation,
    euen to that same time:
    and at that time thy people shalbe deliuered,
    euery one that shalbe found written in the booke.
    2 And many of them that sleepe in the dust
    of the earth shall awake, some to euerlasting life,
    and some to shame and euerlasting contempt.
    3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightnesse
    of the firmament, and they that turne many to righteousnesse,
    as the starres for euer and euer.

    This Old Testament (OT) passage shows the same two groups
    as John 5:28. The timing is NOT delineated.

    1. "resurrection of life"
    some to euerlasting life

    2. "resurrection of damnation"
    some to shame and euerlasting contempt

    But when we get to Revelation 20 more information is
    given including the timing which is 1,000 years.
    Here one passage helps illustrate and expand another passage.
     
  17. Ed Edwards

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    Deacon JD: //Notice all of the dead come forth both righteous
    and wicked at his command.I would like to see one passage
    that mentions more than one resurrection or judgement
    in the single passage.//

    Rev 20:4 And
    I saw thrones, and they sate vpon them,
    and iudgement was giuen vnto them
    :
    &
    I saw the soules of them that were beheaded for the witnesse of Iesus,
    and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast,
    neither his image, neither had receiued his marke
    vpon their foreheads, or in their hands
    ;

    and they liued and reigned with Christ a thousand yeeres.

    This shows two groups of the just that might be resurrected at
    different times and different places. Yet they have one common
    feature: they are part of the resurrection of the just.

    I beleive that group #1:
    I saw thrones, and they sate vpon them,
    and iudgement was giuen vnto them

    is the people of the Church Age that were
    resurrected or raptured at the
    start of the Tribulation Period (AKA: 70th week of Daniel)
    and have been rewarded with special service with Christ
    during the Millinnial Messanic Kingdom.

    I believe that group #2:
    I saw the soules of them that were beheaded for the witnesse of Iesus,
    and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast,
    neither his image, neither had receiued his marke
    vpon their foreheads, or in their hands
    ,
    Also Known As (AKA) Tribulation Saints
    are those who died in the Tribulation Period as witness
    to their salvation experience. These people are
    resurrected/raptured at the end of the Tribulation Period.

    Although these two groups of people are resurrected/raptured
    at different times that are 7-years apart,
    they are collectively called THE FIRST RESURRECTION.
     
  18. deacon jd

    deacon jd
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    some scripture about the resurrection of the just

    Our Lord was very specific about when the resurrection of the just would take place, consider the following passages

    Jn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life:and I will raise him up at the last day.

    v44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    v54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

    Jn11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in resurrection at the last day.

    Notice that the resurrection takes place on the last day and in the last scripture passage I referred to it is a single resurrection.
     
  19. Ed Edwards

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    Here is the definition of 'day' used generally by Bible prophecy:

    (definiltion from http://dictionary.reference.com )

    8. a time considered as propitious or opportune

    it does NOT mean:

    1. the 24-hour mean solar day
    2. the 12-hour (average) daylight time
    3. the 48-hour day (which dictionary.reference.com isn't aware of?)
    (at one point on the earth a day is 24 hours long; at all points on
    earth a specific date /such as 04 Sept 2006/ lasts for 48 hours)
    4. the 8-hour (nominal) work day

    Nothing I've said about eschatology denies the verses quoted above.
    In fact, my eschatology includes those verses. I believe that
    the LAST DAY & DAY OF CHRIST & DAY OF THE LORD
    & Daniel's 70th week (7-years) all describe the same time.

    BTW, if I ever wrote an eschatological book the penultimate chapter
    will have the title "EVENTS AFTER THE LAST DAY"
     
    #19 Ed Edwards, Sep 4, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 4, 2006
  20. deacon jd

    deacon jd
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    reply to Ed

    Ed, I am a common sense type guy, and I base all my beliefs in scripture. I have little confidence in commentaries, dictionaries, and opinions of others, because all come from man. I believe that when Jesus referred to the last he meant the very last, and when he referred to a day he meant a day as we know a day. To believe otherwise is to believe that Jesus was the author of confusion, and I assure you he wasn't. I would also like to hear your interpratation of Mt 24:29-31.
     

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