A Question for Arminians (or no-name theology believers)

Returning to this (lest webdog insinuate that I don't answer posts):

The reference is, "Is unbelief a sin." I think that we both hold, as does the Bible, that unbelief IS a sin. Therefore, if Christ died for "all sins" of "all people" unbelief, as a sin, would be forgiven.

However, you are suggesting that unbelief is not forgiven, which means that you are in fact arguing for Christ's atonement for all people, but not all sins.

As a sin, unbelief is not just a positional shift as you allude, it is a sin that needs to be forgiven, with repentance applied, and by the grace of Christ who paid for that sin as well as all the others.

Follow-up question: How does (or can) one come to Christ if his or her sin(s) are not forgiven?

That may be true, for I find you less of a universalist than you think you are. You tend to grasp onto the emotional side of the argument, greatly desiring for "all" to be saved whether but you are rather fuzzy about how that happens. I expect that we may make progress in hashing that out in the future if you can let go of the emotional aspects of the argument in favor of the logical and biblical aspects.

I argue (indeed!) for God's arbitrary decision because that is what the Scriptures say. While I admit (I have to -- EVERY verse of Scripture is for any theology that is truly biblical!) that there are texts that indicate human choice, I cannot see where they transcend or trump God's ultimate sovereignty. In the Scriptures, I find God electing people constantly, often going against conventional human will or tradition. In fact, one of the more detailed and comprehensive theologies of the entire Scriptures is now based on God's election as the center of the Bible, versus dispensations, covenants, etc. It is God's election power, to bring about God's purpose and divine will that we see at work in both the Scriptures and in our life experience.

That God's election FEELS like our own choice is a given. That's the way we are wired, and we, like so many of the characters in the Bible cannot see the spiritual realm that is ever active to accomplish God's will in so many ways as to be astounding in their utter complexity. When I accepted Christ, it "seemed" to me as if I was making a decision, and indeed I was. But, prior to me making that decision (which took me over a year and a half) God put before me a multitude of circumstances -- some extremely focused to my particular situation -- in order that my will would eventually be bent to His, and praise Him, it was and is!

I expect that upon deep examination, virtually every Christian would have a likewise testimony because we cannot "believe in" what (or whom) we do not know, nor can we unite with what we cannot see or grasp. God HAD to reveal Himself to us before we could turn to Him, and His revelation to us was/is part of the grace He extends to us, lest He "harden" us against knowing Him as is also a case we see at times, both in and out of Scripture.

Here you are fiddling about with the utter power of God to accomplish His divine will. You are also on the edge of blasphemy by suggesting that Christ could not 100% accomplish exactly the purpose for the Father's sending, i.e., to redeem the elect.

The way around this issue is to realize that "all those who chose to believe" ARE the elect, and as such, Christ perfectly satisfied every issue of the Father in securing our salvation by His atonement. He would not, nor actually could not, atone for those who are and would remain lost, or else they would either not be lost (universalism), or if they were atoned for the elect and no longer counted with the reprobates.

There is no "conditional" aspect to the atonement, whereby God must foreknow who will actually believe before He sets in place the mechanism for salvation. That would make man king over God. It can never be! While we have some exercise of our will, it is in keeping with our "position" as being in or out of Christ. We can will to do righteousness once "in Christ" and we can will to continue in sin if "not in Christ." We cannot will righteousness (required if lost persons are responsible for coming to Christ on their own power) nor can we will a return to our lost state once "in Christ" for "we are not our own, we were bought with a price."

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Welcome to the universal struggle! Every believer who has sat down with the Scriptures and contemplated the actions of God, the sinful life they have lived, and the marvelous expression of free grace offered by the Father through Christ and delivered by the Holy Spirit, has wrestled with all of the above if they are intellectually honest. Nothing about God is so "cut and dried" that we can just take it for granted! In fact, if don't reason through "why me instead of him" sort of questions, we are probably not authentic in our faith, nor have we spent much time in the Word.

Further, if we fail to ask questions like, "What of those yet lost in their sin?" we are in all likelihood not God's sons, for "sons" ask questions like that of their "Father." As a note: We are called "sons" for a reason that is not completely "sexist." According to the promise of Romans 8 and elsewhere, we are "co-heirs with Christ." God, there, caused Paul to use the term "sons" because "sons" inherit," but daughters do not. God is making us "all" {those in Christ} equivalent in our inheritance! Isn't He amazing!

About the "God has told us plainly that He is willing for none to perish, but all to come to repentance..." issue, how do you resolve to reconcile Scripture on this issue? Was it not Christ who said, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matt 7:21-23)

Either we make Jesus a liar, or we work harder to understand what is really being said in passages like 2 Peter 3:9. Let's look at that passage and see if Jesus is a liar, or if God may have meant something other than "all" when He caused the verse "none to perish" to be written.

2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I note first that you cite the last half of that verse, and seem to place the emphasis on the word "none." But, that is not the main clause in that passage, and the word "none" needs to be seen in context of both the passage itself, and the letter that Peter is writing.

In the passage, Peter writes that God is not slack concerning His promise... To whom? To "us" (us-ward in KJV). Who is the "us" of this passage? It is the church to whom Peter is writing, in other words, Peter is writing this passage concerning people who are already believers (and indeed he has just finished warning the believers of "scoffers" (false teachers or those who would lead the congregation astray) who would enter their midst with (in essence) Satanic lies about God's promises. Peter tells us that God does not desire that "none of us" (the congregation, and by inference, the believers in Christ as this passage is handed down for posterity and future generations of "us") should perish, but that "all of us" should come to repentance.

This understanding does not lead to a universal application, as it is intended for believers, and in fact, speaks more of perseverance than it does of atonement and a universal application of the effects of the atonement. And note, I have not "twisted" this passage in any way in order to arrive at this conclusion. All I have done is identified, very simply, who is speaking and to whom. No fancy Greek, etc., just the plain understanding of the passage IN CONTEXT.

Drawing out one phrase of this passage and suggesting that it implies Christ's atonement to all men, when it is not even speaking of such, is where the "twisting" occurs.

About the consequences of dying in sin... You are very right to be concerned about that issue! I said as much above! Those who are not concerned are yet in their sin, for one cannot know God and not be concerned with others who do not know God. But God offers a remedy and a means for those who do not know of Christ and the gospel to find out, and we are not all that worried about that. We would rather make God a universalist -- a failed theology for any number of reasons -- instead of DOING what God plainly said for us to do. Five times, Jesus gave a form of the Great Commission, at the end of each gospel account and in Acts 1:8. Further, the book of Acts is the church obeying the mandate of Christ to carry the gospel to all parts of the world, as were Paul's efforts, recorded in his epistles, John's efforts recorded in his epistles, and Peter's efforts recorded in his epistles. The general concept in the NT is that WE go and do likewise!

Sadly, down through the ages, we've spent a WHOLE lot more time arguing (and killing each other) over doctrines that really have nothing at all to do with obeying God and fulfilling the Great Commandment and the Great Commission. We're really not interested in taking the gospel to all people, we would rather wrangle Scripture to make that unnecessary! Shame on us! God forgive us! As Paul said, "How can they hear without a preacher?"

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I'd suggest that your entire take on this, based on a faulty reading of 2 Pet 3:9, is a non-issue. None of what Peter wrote in either of his epistles leads one to hold the sort of free will that you profess. Peter is perhaps the most staunch of all the NT writers concerning the elect and God's sovereignty. He was one who experienced God's election power in his own life and he never forgot it.

But, our God is NOT a dictator. In fact, I keep hearing this as the "antidote" to Calvinism, but NO Calvinist would even suggest that God is a dictator! He is a loving Father, who promises to lead, guide, and discipline His "sons" (see above). He draws us to Himself! Allah is a dictatorial god. Even if he (Allah) says "Go and kill yourself and all these people with you..." his followers go and do without question (even if they don't hear from Allah himself, which is 100% likely!). Our God allows people who are not the elect to turn and go away. He even allows the elect to turn and go away -- for a time -- until He decides the time is right to DRAW them to Himself. That is not dictatorship, that is LOVING RELATIONSHIP by a God who gave His only Son to insure that His will would be done -- for OUR benefit! Can't hardly get more loving than that...

Can God "force" our belief? I'd say, yes, but He mostly doesn't. That's why I suggested that you ask Paul, 10 minutes after his Damascus Road incident... Of course, I guess that some would say that Paul had a choice (I doubt it) but from what I've seen in Scripture, all those who "see" God for who God is have no reservations in coming to Him. Indeed, are we not promised that one day "Every knee will bow and every tongue confess...?" Even those who do not believe will believe once the "see" God.

Our "consequences" are there whether we know them or not. "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," and "The wages of sin is death." Christ came to save certainly dead sinners (John 3), not to help those who were already alright with God. We are born doomed and damned, and after that, nothing else we do will make a difference. That is a fact of the Bible that cannot be erased by wishful or emotional thinking. It is only those who are "new creation(s)" in Christ that have hope.

But, that is exactly what people make of God who suggest that He can only act based on OUR reaction. They make God a God of no ability. Again, we cannot "chose" whom we cannot know, and we cannot know God, nor Christ, unless God reveals Himself to us, which the Bible says is the grace of God.

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Neither myself nor my wife are God, nor do either of us command the unlimited abilities and powers of God to both create and to will His divine purpose which WILL be fulfilled, for whom is is that is higher than God? Us? Really? That is a sin of the first magnitude! We may have to disagree about God exercising His divine right to cause we humans to do His will. It is hugely evident in the Scriptures that He does so often. In fact, the case made by some here on the board and down through history is not that God does not, but that the cases recorded in Scripture are not "normative" and that God "typically" does not exercise His divine prerogative toward His created creatures. My question is, "How do we know that?" Do we have the mind of God to know how He has indeed acted or how He has arranged circumstances to bring about His will while making it seem as if we are doing all the choosing?

It has happened... But again, in the Scriptures, the Bride of Christ is a MOST willing bride! In fact, we CAN'T WAIT for the marriage supper of the Lamb!

I understand that it is commonly said (even by me) that God will not drag anyone kicking and screaming into His kingdom. I do not believe He will, but it is a mis-reading of Calvinism AND the Scriptures to suggest that He will do that. The Apostle Paul again (may as well use a Scriptural example) certainly did not want to become a follower of Christ. He was already following God with a zeal unlike many humans down through the ages, and he was willing to commit MURDER for the namesake of God. What Paul (Saul) didn't realize was that he was persecuting the very God that he THOUGHT he loved. His "choice" was for God, but the "choice" was wrong. It was when God "coerced" Paul that Paul turned about and truly "loved" God with all his heart, soul, and strength. Paul was "dragged kicking and screaming" into the true kingdom of God, but once there, he had a change of heart and became zealous for Christ, with a love that was as great as any human, ever!

I think it is due time to test the limits of free will, but this post is long enough!
Look for something on that later, probably in another thread.