a question for arminians

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by massdak, Jul 25, 2004.

  1. massdak

    massdak
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    can you give me some reasons why some do not believe on Christ

    can you give me some reasons why some do believe?
     
  2. Southern

    Southern
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    I guess you could also phrase the question "who maketh thee to differ from another".

    Some don't believe because they are Christ haters and will not come to Christ (John 6:44)
    unless... Man? no God!

    Some believe because they are elect (John 6:37) and appointed to eternal life (Acts 13:48).

    In Christ
     
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    Sure.

    1/3 of the angels fell along with Lucifer and 2/3's remained "Because they had free will".

    In the Arminian system "nothing MAKES you choose as you do".

    In the Calvinist system "everyone chooses as they do - because something in their nature, or in their environment MAKES them choose as they do".

    If you are trying to objectively evaluate the Arminian model - you can not do so with a Calvinist premise.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. Southern

    Southern
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    Bob Ryan,
    Will we have "free will" according to your definition once we get to heaven?
    Specifically, Can we get kicked out of heaven once we get there? (I am interested on your view given your stated beliefs above)

    In Christ
     
  5. npetreley

    npetreley
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    Scripture, please?
     
  6. Me2

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    I agree with show me the scriptures...


    all men will at some point of time come to the derived conclusion that God is leading them towards. wether in this age or in the following.

    in the meantime. all man made religions which add to Gods truths will only delay their journey of salvation from sin.

    Like giving "free will" to satan and his demons. which only leads to ultimately giving man the illusion of twarting Gods will with his own "free will". either God is sovereign or man is...

    Me2
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    Scripture, please? </font>[/QUOTE]I use Rev 12 for that 1/3 number.

    Or are you arguing that God created sinless beings - Angels -- without free will?

    If so -- why do you argue that?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. BobRyan

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    Yes.

    Yes - you can CHOOSE to be evil and you can then suffer the consequences of that choice.

    But what you CAN do and what you WILL do are two different things then - as they are today.

    Just because you CAN jump off a cliff today does not mean you WILL do it as often as the opportunity presents itself.

    In the FREE WILL universe of God - decision is "motivated" by compelling argument and information - just as we see in the Arminian methods of evangelism employed by Calvinists today.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    Bob,

    Your post was and remains correct. Adam had a free will as well as the archangel who fell from grace, if you will allow me to express it in this way. Why would God give Adam and Eve and this archangel free-will and then play Divine puppeteer in the destinies of sinners?

    Isaiah points out that Lucifer fell from his lofty state of grace. [14:12-18] The Bible says, 'When iniquity was found in thee . . . is when He and 1/3 of the angels entered our world system. The Lord did not cause the archangel to fall; his pride brought about his demise.

    God in His great plan for the ages has through His sovereignty allowed or ordained that all sinners have the freedom to respond to the Holy Spirit's call to commitment and faith in Jesus Christ. The Lord forces no person to step into Hell; they do it because of their rebellion.
     
  10. Tumbleweed

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    Yes - you can CHOOSE to be evil and you can then suffer the consequences of that choice.
    [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Am I getting this right Bob? Are you really saying that those in Glory still have the capacity to rebel as Lucifer did, and be cast out? If Yes, then do the Biblical doctrines of regeneration, sanctification and glorification retain any real meaning? Jesus said, "Whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" A pertinent question indeed.

    One wonders what you think about someone in Hell who, having finally had enough, "decided for Christ." If freewill reigns in both places, then our universalist friend is onto something.

    - Paul
     
  11. BobRyan

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    Paul - you need to follow the argument and debate it. Only following half the argument means I only have to repeat what I already said.


    Lucifer -- the perfect sinless angel "could" fall and "did" fall. But 2/3's of the Angels did not "choose to fall".

    Just because you "can" choose to jump off a cliff does not mean that every human "will jump off a cliff".

    God "motivates" by compelling argument --not by pithing the brain so that it can not function.

    I am arminian - so of course I believe in free will even AFTER one gets saved...

    Your notion that sinless beings in heaven "are deprived of choice" is not supported in all of scripture.

    I don't think anyone WILL choose "to die" once they get to heaven (though you seem to insist that they MUST choose to die IF they CAN choose it). On this world you argue that they MUST choose death because of their depravity - why do you think they MUST choose death in heaven?


    ==========================================
    Now for the "new" part of my argument posted here:

    #1. I never said that free will was inherent to the being - it is supernatural result of the John 12:32 supernatural drawing of God for those on earth. For sinless beings in heaven - as for Adam and Eve - it is a basic part of their nature that God GIVES them. Those in hell remain totally depraved as on earth and have no John 12:32 drawing that enables choice.

    #2. I am arminian so of course I believe in "Free will" even after one gets saved.

    #3.Christ himself gives us the perfect example of "Forgiveness Revoked" in Matt 18.

    (as He did in Ezek 18 BTW).

    We have the same concept in the parable of the sower in Luke 8 with the thorny ground and the rocky ground. The dead comes to life - and then dies away.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. BobRyan

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    Well said my friend.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. npetreley

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    No, I'm asking you for scripture that says 1/3 of the angels fell of their own free will. I know satan took 1/3 of the angels with him, but show me where scripture says they changed, and that it was of their own free will.
     
  14. Tumbleweed

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    Bob -
    I'm not insisting on anything except that such an odd idea as Abraham being cast out Heaven ought to be substantiated from God's word.

    Point #1: You cant have it both ways, Bob. On the one hand you seem to say that being cast out of Heaven is an absolutely real possibility, yet on the other hand you don't think it will actually happen. Is this reasoning grounded on nothing more than "Who would want to get kicked out of such a neat place?" or is there a scriptural basis for it?

    Point #2: Basing our doctrine on what happened in the angelic realm is erronious, given that the angels are as different an order of creation from ourslves as elephants. (Rev.4:6-9)

    Point #3: (Why do preachers see everything in threes?) How is it possible for someone to be ejected from Heaven 10 million years from now after the final judgement is past, and all who were not written in the Lamb's book of life have already been condemned (Rev.20:15)? Is it possible that God missed someone, and will have to re-convene the court? Was He mistaken when He stated that there would be no more death after this? (Rev.21:4)

    - Paul
     
  15. BobRyan

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    God says "they shall not hurt or destroy in all my Holy Mountain".

    God says "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship".

    When you mention your "Abraham cast out of heaven" proposal -

    #1 are you suggesting that he should be able to refuse to worship and STILL stay in heaven?

    #2 ARE arguing that he needs to have his free will removed so he CAN't choose to disobey?

    #3 Are you arguing that the compelling reasons God gives for obedience will be "insufficient" for the saints in heaven?
    ----------------------------------------------

    No. I say that the compelling arguments God provides will be more than sufficient to persuade free will sinless - perfect beings to stay with God and not to choose death.

    But I insist they are not simply mindless robots with brains pithed into "love mode" and unnable to choose anything on their own.

    True enough. Just because you curse your friends and neighbors doesn't mean you WILL curse your friends and neighbors.

    No difference. We don't have to "imagine" it -- we already see these "choices" today among the saints.

    Well there is always the attitude Paul describes in Philippians 3. If we have that on THIS earth - how much more in the NEXT life?

    Actually - they make an excellent case in point.

    They fell first THEN Adam Fell.

    They did not NEED to fall - and Adam did not NEED to fall.

    Neither they NOR Adam were created with "a defect" so that they "had to fall".

    And they provide the excellent case in point of sinless beings CHOOSING to remain faithful.

    Your all-humans-must-fail if given free will - idea is not supported in scripture in terms of heaven. Even on this sinful world SOME choose life and SOME choose death.

    In Rev 20 we are told that they are "judged according to their deeds" in 2Cor 5"The deeds DONE in the body whether good OR bad". The "deeds done 10 million years from now" are never said to be part of that list.

    So that part is pretty easy.

    The deeds "DONE" in the body should already be known - your 10 million years future "Events" will not have happened.

    But we need not worry because JUST as there are 2/3 of the angels that CHOOSE to remain faithful - so will the saints.

    Obviously not. Only YOU argue that the angels and saints must have their free will revoked or else God can't make good on His promise.

    I never make that claim. See?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. BobRyan

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    No, I'm asking you for scripture that says 1/3 of the angels fell of their own free will. I know satan took 1/3 of the angels with him, but show me where scripture says they changed, and that it was of their own free will. </font>[/QUOTE]Does ANY Calvinist argue that the sinless beings created by God were "MADE to fall" due to defects God built into them?

    If so - this is the first time I have heard one claim it. What scripture do you use?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. npetreley

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    I haven't claimed anything - you have. You claim to know that 1/3 of angels made a free-will decision to rebel. If you can't provide a scripture to back it up, then admit it's only your opinion and stop trying to evade the question.
     
  18. BobRyan

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    There is no other choice - as you seem to admit "by silence" that even Calvinist do not argue anything like "no God made them do it" or "God created them with flaws".

    So if there is no other choice - free will - the SAME thing we see in all of scripture - remains.

    WE also have Peter's statement that humans that choose to reject the gospel are like the Angels that chose to reject their created estate and remain loyal to God.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. npetreley

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    There are other choices. Maybe they rebelled by a free will choice. Maybe God created them rebellious. Maybe God created them good but later caused them to rebel. Maybe God created them good and then withdrew enough of His support that they turned rebellious. I'm sure there are even other possibilities we cannot imagine. But I don't claim to know what happened -- you do.

    So cough up the scripture or admit it's just your opinion.
     
  20. Tumbleweed

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    I'm beginning to see how this game is played! Last one to throw a bucket of rubbish over the fence wins the feud!

    - Paul
     

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