A question for our non-Calvinist brethren about angels

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by whetstone, Nov 7, 2005.

  1. whetstone

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    The major argument against Calvinism sounds like this:

    God offers salvation equally and freely to all men- A God that didn't offer it to all men would be unloving- and an ogre.

    I am begging to ask: What about the fallen angels? No salvation was offered for them yet man is made 'a little lower than the angels.' What is your answer to this- you who deny God's definite atonement?

    The only answer I ever get is 'because God made man in His image' but I see no where in scripture that this is why salvation is offered to men and not angels. If you can show me scripture for this answer- I will be very grateful.

    God bless.

    Daniel Allen
    www.spurgeon.us
     
  2. BobRyan

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    #1. God did not arbitrarily select some fallen angels to save and others not to save.

    #2. Luke 12:47-50 points out that in an intelligent free will universe you are judged by what you know. The Angels "knew a lot" about God and so had to "reject a lot" about God to leave.

    John 8 - You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. But in Heb 6:1-6 there comes a point where it is "impossible to renew them again" because so much has been rejected.

    1John 5 also speaks of humans that have gone beyond that point.

    So it applies to us as well as the Angels.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. whetstone

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    If knowledge is the reason the fallen angels were not given a sacrificial lamb, could the angels have been created with more limited knowledge so some could be redeemed?
     
  4. HanSola2000

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    Sure, and God could just create robots too.
     
  5. Ray Berrian

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    Most Christians would agree that the angels fell from grace even before the creation of the earth. At least we know that Satan appeared in the form of a serpent.

    God is sovereign to the extent, I believe, that He could have provided a way back for Satan and his fallen angels/demons, if it was within His plan. This did not happen.

    His plan was because of Adam's Fall in the Garden to elevate a Second Adam [I Corinthians 15:22 & 47]--Who is Christ that He could give all human beings the opportunity to be ransomed [I Timothy 2:6] and made right in the sight of Almighty God.

    The simple plan of salvation is that the sinner believe in the Father's Son [John 5:23-24; John 6:47 & Acts 2:21].

    Angels are stronger [Psalm 34:7] than human beings and smarter also and perhaps it was a factor in why God will damn all the 'fallen angels' forever because they knew better than to violate God's law as to the adoration of Himself.

    We were not spiritual beings when we lived in and unsaved life style. The Lord called us children of His wrath [Ephesians 2:3]. Christians were once in bondage to their sins before the Christ event in our hearts. Now we have a spiritual part of our life yet all the time we live as fleshly, human beings. The struggle continues though we love Jesus and obey His will and Word.

    The Lord chose to reconcile all who will believe and trust in Him, though the offered gift of grace is viable for all sinners [Hebrews 2:9] Jesus 'tasted death for human sinners' and not for His angels. This was and is His will for all time and eternity.

    Why did Christ do it this way? Because He is the sovereign Lord of the world, universe and all the galaxies. His will and determinations are all wise.
     
  6. BobRyan

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    I don't think they were "created with knowledge" any more than Adam and Eve. But in heaven they were in direct contact with God - with Lucifer as one of the covering cherub in the very presence of God on His throne. "The starting ignorance" is not the key to success.

    2/3's of the Angels remained loyal.

    But couldn't God "zap Lucifer's brain" when he STARTED to go down the wrong path - the wrong line of thought?? Why YES God could have ZAPPED!

    (Just anticipating your next question)

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. natters

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    Scripture doesn't tell us. Technically, it also doesn't even tell us that no salvation was offered. It is simple silent on the issue.

    Now I'm wondering: were the fallen angels predestined to fall? ;)
     
  8. Ray Berrian

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    'Scripture doesn't tell us. Technically, it also doesn't even tell us that no salvation was offered. It is simple silent on the issue.'

    [Ray's Quote] Scripture is clear on the suject of fallen angels. No atonement was offered to them. Why do we know this? Because God before the Great White Throne Judgment for all sinners, the Lord is going to cast Satan, the Antichrist and the False Prophet in the Lake of Fire. The reference is found in Revelation 20:10. There is no hope and no ransom made for this "Unholy Trinity" as it is named in theology classes [End Quote from Ray].
     
  9. Pastor Larry

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    Actually, Ray, Scripture does tell us in 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6 that these angels are reserved for judgment. Rev 20:10 doesn't address angels in anyway. That is for the dead ... the unbelievers.
     
  10. Ray Berrian

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    Apparently, Pastor Larry has not yet heard that the Devil is a 'fallen angel' called Lucife as I duly noted in Revelation 20:10a.

    And by the way the angels in II Peter and Jude 6 are only a certain number of 'fallen angels' who were placed there by Christ in a place from this passage written in Greek called Tartarus. A good seminary would have explained this to various men of God in different seminaries or Bible Colleges.

    This world is the main focus of most of the fallen angels. Their job is to deceive both the unsaved to insure their eternal destruction and also do cause Christians to fail and become discouraged--spiritually speaking.

    You have some 'black holes' in your theology, because everyone knows that Revelation 20:10 deals with the unholy trinity of the DEVIL, the 'beast'/ANTICHRIST, and the FALSE PROPHET who will deceive people during the future Great Tribulation [Matthew 24:21 & 29].

    And some of you other brethren do not say this happened in 70 A.D., because to date no one has seen the sun darkened, the moon turning into blackness, nor the heavenly realm shaken. And to our knowledge the Son of Man has not returned at His Second Coming.
     
  11. TexasSky

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    The fallen angels HAD paradise, they rejected it.

    They were only cast out of heaven after they followed Satan in rebellion against God.

    Looks to me like they exercised free will and they suffered the consequences of their actions.

    Are you suggesting that God wanted Satan and the fallen angels to regel against God, lead men to rebel against God, etc., just so God could send someone to hell?
     
  12. Pastor Larry

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    I was thinking of v. 11 which deals with people, not angels. Of course you know very well that I know that Satan is a fallen angel. Why would you suggest that I didn't know that? You know better Ray. Don't stoop to that.

    Which is what I said.

    And they did.

    One problem is your continued failure to use proper posting format. Please fix it so your statements stand clearly out from those you are responding to. You quote the one you are responding to.

    That wasn't under dispute.

    My mistake was the way I read your post. Please use the proper formatting from now on. I have encouraged several times in the past few days to do this. Please start now.
     
  13. Johnv

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    It's a nonissue. Scripture was inspired by God and written my men for the purpose of sharing the good news of men, for men, and to men. It doesn't discuss salvation of the angels because it's not pertinent to our salvation.

    To me it's one of those questions like "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" or "if nothing is impossible with God, then can God make a rock so big he can't move it".
     
  14. Ray Berrian

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    Pastor Larry,

    I will try to comply with your wish about formating. I am not as good at these things as you. I will try to improve for clarity sake.

    Ray
     
  15. Me4Him

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    Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, (satan) and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

    13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

    14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

    15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

    16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

    17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

    18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

    Like everything God has ever created, Satan was "PERFECT" when he was created, and his "down fall" was the results of "CHOICES" he made, not God.

    The 1/3 Angels who followed Satan, also made that "CHOICE" to sin.

    Re 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven,

    2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

    Sin is always a CHOICE, that why we're instructed to "KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS".
     
  16. Ray Berrian

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    Me4Him,

    You get a red star on your paper today. I agree with everything you said. You may have to explain it in more detail if there are any floundering.

    Berrian, Th.D.
     
  17. Me4Him

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    Calvinist don't understand the word "GRACE", which is "LOVE",

    Just as God can "select" whom he will show that "GRACE", so can we, "LOVE GOD" or "LOVE SATAN".

    God only give "LOVE" (Grace) to those who will "RETURN IT".

    But the offer is to the "WHOLE WORLD".

    Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith,

    Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

    1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

    Atonement for the whole world was made on the cross, but "unbelief" prevents the "BLOOD" from being "applied".
     
  18. Ray Berrian

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    Me4Him,

    Right again. And they presume to say they believe in the "Doctrines of Grace." Unbelievable!!

    Are you a pastor or a vital lay Elder in the church?
    Don't feel obligated to answer my question.

    Ray
     
  19. Pastor Larry

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    That's pretty bold isn't it? You really think Calvinists don't understand grace?

    I'd be willing to bet that you don't disagree with Calvinists about grace. You disagree about some other things that stem from it.

    Let's not try to make these kind of accusations. They don't further than conversations.
     
  20. natters

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    Any comments on my question?
     

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