A question for those who are dispensational pre-trib

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by The Archangel, May 12, 2010.

  1. The Archangel

    The Archangel
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    Friends,

    This will be, I believe, my 1,000th post. So, I figured I'd start a thread to ask a question that has been gnawing at me.

    DISCLAIMER: I am not dispensational pre-trib. I am somewhere between Historic Pre-mil and amillennial. But, I am much closer to amillennial.

    I grew-up dispensational pre-trib, but ever since seminary I have had to reject that eschatology for many reasons that I do not want to go into here--for that is not the purpose of this thread.

    Here's my question:

    Does dispensational pre-trib theology (or theory) say that the Holy Spirit is taken out of the world after the Rapture of the church?

    I may have a follow-up question or two later as this thread develops based on certain answers. I can assure you, however, that my intent is not to argue against anyone's eschatology. For me, one's eschatology is not terribly important (it would be a third-order issue--one that does not speak to your legitimacy of one's Christianity or fellowship with other believers).

    So, have at it!

    Blessings,

    The Archangel
     
  2. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter
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    I am not a pre-tribulational advocate. However, I am a post-tribulational premillenialist. I understand the pre-trib position to teach that the Holy Spirit is taken out of the world at the rapture and their proof text is 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7
     
  3. jaigner

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    This is also my position, and I believe this is the general belief of the dispensational crowd.
     
  4. thomas15

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    At the rapture, the church is removed. The ministry of the Holy Spirit will revert to the function it had prior to beginning of the church in Acts ch. 2.

    There will be tribulation saints and the Holy Spirit will work in their lives but it will be a ministry like that available to the saved in Old Testament times.
     
  5. thegospelgeek

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    I am pre-trib but I don't think I qualify as dispy. I do not feel the Holy Spirit is taken out of the world. However, I know a large number of pre-tribs who do.
     
  6. webdog

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    I agree with this response the most. When the church is removed, the Great Commission ceases and the effect of believers on the world is gone. Whether this means the Holy Spirit (The Restrainer) is completely removed or He leaved the world to themselves at this point while remaining is a topic of debate.
     
  7. AnotherBaptist

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    Was the Holy Spirit in the world before Pentecost? Of course He was. Then why on more than just one occasion did Jesus say to His disciples that He would "send" the Holy Spirit?

    It is obvious what Jesus meant (that the Holy Spirit had been with them, but would be in them), just as it should be obvious what pre-trib, pre-mill dispies are trying to say when they say the Holy Spirit is "taken" with the Church. They're referring to the Sealed Indwelling of the Holy Spirit in live Church saints, not His Presence elsewhere on the earth.

    While you're considering this, remember that if pre-trib is correct, there are absolutely no Believers left on the earth immediately after the Church leaves. None. However one might question how the Holy Spirit would operate past that point, it's safe to say that if the rapture goes down as pre-trib says it will, He will clearly be starting from scratch. The "whole lump is leavened".
     
    #7 AnotherBaptist, May 12, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: May 12, 2010
  8. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    Hello to All,

    I agree fully with the first two paragraphs, but, I am a pre-trib rapture believer, so the last I disagree with.

    But, I don't consider this a doctrine to break fellowship over, and given the fact that I am human (really), I could be wrong.

    Having said that, I often wonder how the amillennial view can be taken seriously, and see it as the least likely position.

    I can say, there is enough scripture for me to see the possibility of a pre-trib rapture, and have as yet seen no scriptural presentation that would convince me otherwise.

    The best arguments I have seen against it come from Progressive Dispensationalist, but their case is flawed as well (meaning I see weaknesses that can be found in both mine and the other views).

    Most Pre-Trib believers do not believe that the Spirit of God is taken out of the world...for God is omni-present, and the notion is silly.

    We/ I see that the influence of the Holy Spirit is taken out of the world when His physical body, the Church, is removed...this I see as the restrainer.

    I agree that the Spirit of God will still indwell through the tribulation, but that He will resume a semblance of His ministry in the Old Testament.

    As far as there being no Christians if the Church is removed, that will be remedied quickly enough.

    Should the Church be removed, the reaction of the unbelieving world will be, I think, tremendous.

    I do welcome any reasons put forth as to why a pre-trib rapture is not possible...I like to confirm for myself it's possibility, and there is no better way than opposing view.

    God bless.
     
  9. npetreley

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    I agree that this is the pre-trib position.

    However, I would argue that 2 Thess 2:6-7 refers to the archangel Michael.

    Daniel 12:1 “At that time Michael shall stand up, [stand down, or stand still, i.e. taken out of the way] The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, [great tribulation] Even to that time.
     
  10. webdog

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    Glad to see you back, npetreley! We may have bumped heads theologically...but I missed the sense of humor! :)
     
  11. HankD

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    This seems to be the case but please take note that it is the restraining function that is to be removed.

    Even at that, if pre-trib, pre-mil is the correct view it would seem that there must be some work of the Spirit of God after the "rapture" (harpazo) else how could people be saved?

    And yes people will be saved, even a multitude after the rapture has occured.

    NKJV Revelation 7
    9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
    10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"
    11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
    12 saying: "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, Thanksgiving and honor and power and might, Be to our God forever and ever. Amen."
    13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?"
    14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
    15 "Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.
    16 "They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat;
    17 "for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."​

    I used the NKJV because it properly shows the definite article "the great tribulation" present in the Greek.​


    HankD​
     
  12. Eagle

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    Hello Darrell C, try this then, for a Post-trib-post-millennial 'proof' which negates your pre-trib or pre-mil anything:

    The whole point & purpose of Peter's 1st recorded sermon, immediately after "Pentecost" is that Jesus IS the Messiah, Christ, Anointed One, Seed (son) of David, King of Israel, fulfillment of all prophetic scripture -- whom the Jews crucified. And according to Acts 2, Jesus, whom is the heir therefore, to the Davidic covenant, and throne -- is actually seated on that throne right now as we speak, reigning over all things, through, and on behalf of, His Church (Eph. 1). Emphasis in following Bible passages is mine.

    Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
    Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
    Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
    Act 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool
    .
    Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

    Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
    Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
    Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
    Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
    Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
    Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
    Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

    This 'reigning at the right hand of the Father' shall be, "Until I make thy foes thy footstool." Which thing David stated in Psalm 110:1. Where the King sits is his throne. Jesus is sitting and enthroned, at the right hand of the father. there is no higher or greater seat or throne to be had. A further study of all passages related to Christ's reigning at the right hand will corroborate these facts.

    Now, if we take a look at 1 Cor. 15, the 'Rapture Chapter,' if you will, we find these interesting things:

    1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
    1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
    1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end
    , when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
    1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
    1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

    1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
    1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

    1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
    1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
    1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

    1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
    1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

    So then, if there is a "great" tribulation to come, and there is, and if there is a millennial 'period' to occur, and there is -- then both MUST precede the 'rapture' and "the end" (1 Cor. 15:24), which are synonymous or parallel here.

    This meshes perfectly with Jesus direct answer to His disciples direct question in Matthew 24:

    Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

    Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
    Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

    Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Further corroboration can be provided for the soundness and consistency of this interpretation by looking at:

    Heb 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
    Heb 12:27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

    This then, would again be "the end" of the world -- when all physical (made) things are removed. Also, compare the 7th seal and the 7th or "last trump" in Revelation, though admittedly a more complex study, it is none-the-less, perfectly consistent.

    Clearly, this shows us that Christ is reigning, and will reign, on the Throne of David, at the right hand of the Father, until the last enemy (death) is made his footstool, which is accomplished at the 'Rapture,' which occurs at 'The End' of the world.

    Though this is a brief & concise effort, if it still seems overwhelming, or a bit much to work through, perhaps this question will clarify or simplify, if not too much:

    "How can flesh & blood, corruptible (subject to death & decay) beings be 'alive' on the earth, especially alongside incorruptible, changed, resurrected bodies (like unto Christ's resurrected body), AFTER 'death' is conquered and vanquished, which occurs at the rapture?"

    Food for thought. You asked for it - you got it!
     

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