A question for you calvinist?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by PASTOR MHG, Jul 26, 2005.

  1. PASTOR MHG

    PASTOR MHG
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2005
    Messages:
    297
    Likes Received:
    0
    Let me first state that I am niether a Calvinist nor an Arminian...I try to find myself somewhere in between...maybe a Biblicist [​IMG] ...though I know that many of you on both sides would say that there is no "middle ground."

    I have a question for you.

    As far as the unborn or those who have not reached the age of accountability...what happens?

    I have spoken to very fatalistic people in the past who would say that the fate of the unborn or pre-accountability age person is determined (whether heaven or hell)already.

    Is this true?

    And if it is true...how do you explain a Scripture like

    2Sa 12:20 Then David arose from the earth, and washed, and anointed himself, and changed his apparel, and came into the house of the LORD, and worshiped: then he came to his own house; and when he required, they set bread before him, and he did eat.
    2Sa 12:21 Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread.
    2Sa 12:22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
    2Sa 12:23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

    It seems that David must have had a special insight from God as to the destiny of this child...How do you explain his comfort or his seeming knowledge of the destiny of the child?

    BTW, This is not a loaded question...I am truly curious about this.

    Thanks,
    Max
     
  2. 4His_glory

    4His_glory
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2005
    Messages:
    2,884
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have had the 2Samuel passage explained to me once, where David is not claiming that he will be with the child in heaven, but that he simply will go to the grave just as the child did.

    Personally I am not very comfortable with that explaination. I can not be dogmatic, because I do not see any concreat biblical evidence to stand on, but I personally believe that children who die in infancy do go to heaven, because God is merciful.

    I believe that all children who die are elect and for purposes unkown to us God choose to take them before they were grown. Again I can't be dogamatic on that.

    The greatest assuarnce to me when things like the death of a child happen is that God is always right, at all times.
     
  3. Johnv

    Johnv
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    I believe that God provides for all who have not have the opportunity to hear the Gospel. How he does this, I don't know, and scripture does not give me liberty to speculate. Revelation says that those who hear Christ knocking, and open the door, Christ will come in. It doesn't say anything about those who never hear the knock on the door, or are prevented from opening the door. I personally believe that children qualify as never having been able to hear the know or never had the opportunity to open the door.
     
  4. PASTOR MHG

    PASTOR MHG
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2005
    Messages:
    297
    Likes Received:
    0
    I believe that God provides for all who have not have the opportunity to hear the Gospel. How he does this, I don't know, and scripture does not give me liberty to speculate. Revelation says that those who hear Christ knocking, and open the door, Christ will come in. It doesn't say anything about those who never hear the knock on the door, or are prevented from opening the door. I personally believe that children qualify as never having been able to hear the know or never had the opportunity to open the door. </font>[/QUOTE]Correct me if I am wrong, but that doesn't seem like a very Calvinistic Position.

    I also don't think that the scripture you are referencing applies to your position...the Scripture is a reference to Christ and his position in a paticular church (Laodicea).

    Max
     
  5. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    A commonly repeated but always false claim is that one is neither one or the other. If you are an evangelical, you either believe that God elected individuals to salvation from before the world (Calvinist) or you don't (Arminian). Biblicist is meaningless since no one claims to be different.

    With respect to your question, I take the 2 Sam passage to indicate that babies who die are elect and go to heaven. Others disagree. That is fine. Babies, like everyone else, are either elect or not.
     
  6. Corry Cox

    Corry Cox
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2001
    Messages:
    108
    Likes Received:
    0
    Here is Dr. Mohler's response to this question.


    <a href="http://www.sbts.edu/mohler/FidelitasRead.php?article=fidel036" target="_blank">Do Infants who Die Go to Heaven?
    </a>


    Like 4His I cannot dogmaticly say one way or another but I believe they go to heaven.

    &lt;&gt;&lt;
    IHS
     
  7. PASTOR MHG

    PASTOR MHG
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2005
    Messages:
    297
    Likes Received:
    0
    A commonly repeated but always false claim is that one is neither one or the other. If you are an evangelical, you either believe that God elected individuals to salvation from before the world (Calvinist) or you don't (Arminian). Biblicist is meaningless since no one claims to be different.

    With respect to your question, I take the 2 Sam passage to indicate that babies who die are elect and go to heaven. Others disagree. That is fine. Babies, like everyone else, are either elect or not.
    </font>[/QUOTE]My question is more concerned with "how did David know?" It seems that the logical answer would be that those who are not accountable go to heaven, but to leap from here to the conclusion that all those who are not accountable are elect seems like a huge leap.

    To address the other charge in your post...I am neither Calvinist nor Arminian despite your pronouncement of everyone's theology being one or the other.

    I take a much different position on predestination and election than either side...thats for a different thread.

    Thanks for the input thus far,

    Max
     
  8. rc

    rc
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    1,068
    Likes Received:
    0
    Your either a carnivore or a vegetarian.
     
  9. Petrel

    Petrel
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2005
    Messages:
    1,408
    Likes Received:
    0
    What happened to the omnivores?
     
  10. Johnv

    Johnv
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0

    On the scale of calvinism/arminianism, I'm not a die hard calvinist. I lean towards the calvinist side a bit, but not exclusively. The reason for this is because there is some scripture which supports calvinistic positions, and some that support arminian positions (no need to go into them here). The truth is probably somewhere in between those two. The problem with both positions is that they tend to limit God to a three dimensional and linear time view. God is not limited to our references of space and time.

    The bottom line for me is that I believe the elect were known to God since time immemorial (I suppose that puts me in the Calvinist section). Howewever, that does not negate our responsibility to accept the gift of salvation.

    Just my $.02.
    You're correct. I do, however, think that the implication I laid out has some merit. Again, without specific scripture that firmly addresses the topic without question, the best we can do is surmise and interpret to the best of our limited human ability. I suggest that the reason we don't know the answer to the OP question for sure is because God wishes that we not know for sure. That is why I made sure to point out that this is sctictly my opinion.
     
  11. Deacon

    Deacon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    6,968
    Likes Received:
    128
    Elect from birth?

    There is a commonly taught belief that upon death, all babies go to heaven.
    I don’t endorse this belief.
    God elects some, others He doesn’t.
    God certainly knows His elect that have been chosen from all eternity.


    Psalm 139: 13-16 NAS
    For You formed my inward parts;
    You wove me in my mother’s womb.
    I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
    Wonderful are Your works,
    And my soul knows it very well.
    My frame was not hidden from You,
    When I was made in secret,
    And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth;
    Your eyes have seen my unformed substance;
    And in Your book were all written
    The days that were ordained for me,
    When as yet there was not one of them.

    Psalm 22:10 NAS
    Upon You I was cast from birth;
    You have been my God from my mother’s womb.

    Psalm 71:6 NAS
    By You I have been sustained from my birth;
    You are He who took me from my mother’s womb;
    My praise is continually of You.

    Jeremiah 1:5 NAS
    Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.

    Luke 1:39-41 NAS
    Now at this time Mary arose and went in a hurry to the hill country, to a city of Judah,
    and entered the house of Zacharias and greeted Elizabeth.
    When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.

    I believe that God can be trusted to save His own.
    We just need to trust Him.

    Rob
     
  12. billwald

    billwald
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2000
    Messages:
    11,414
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trust God to do what is right. Don't worry about it.
     
  13. Frogman

    Frogman
    Expand Collapse
    <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2001
    Messages:
    5,492
    Likes Received:
    0
    If you are considering the accountability of indiviuals, such as the time of that accountability, I believe the passage you cite does show David to have confidence in seeing his child again.

    But this is the only passage I have ever seen or heard anyone use to support an age of accountability.

    We all go astray from the womb. We all are conceived in iniquity. We all who are conceived are sinners.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  14. whetstone

    whetstone
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/11288.jpg>

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2005
    Messages:
    852
    Likes Received:
    0
    http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/35/1384.html

    http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/35/1344.html

    http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/35/1472/4.html
     
  15. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    We have no idea. Perhaps it was a part of God's revelation that was not inscripturated.

    Could be. We aren't told for sure. We are told that the heavens declare the glory of God and that everyone knows that God exists so that they are without excuse. That rules out an mentally competent person from going to heaven because "they didn't hear."

    Your protestation notwithstanding, in orthodox theology (ruling out universalism and open theism), there are only two positions on election:
    1) God elected individuals to salvation without respect for anything in that individual and he did it for his own purposes.
    2) God did not elect individuals to salvation without respect for anything in that individual.

    I have never figured out this mysterious third position somewhere. This is binary; God elected without reason or God didn't elect without reason.

    If you believe the first, you are Calvinistic; if you believe the second you are arminian. It's not hard and not confusing. You either believe it or you don't. And there is nothing wrong with being called either. They are simple labels that describe positions on the issue.
     
  16. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    I was under the impression that we are saved, through faith, and faith comes from hearing. How then does a mentally handicapped person or newborn have not only the ability to hear and believe, but to have faith in what they hear?
     
  17. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    I was under the impression that we are saved, through faith, and faith comes from hearing. How then does a mentally handicapped person or newborn have not only the ability to hear and believe, but to have faith in what they hear? </font>[/QUOTE]If you want to understand this, read the book "Petey" by Ben Mikaelsen. Just because man cannot understand those we classify as "mentally handicapped", does not mean they are indeed spiritually handicapped.
     
  18. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    I was under the impression that we are saved, through faith, and faith comes from hearing. How then does a mentally handicapped person or newborn have not only the ability to hear and believe, but to have faith in what they hear? </font>[/QUOTE]If you want to understand this, read the book "Petey" by Ben Mikaelsen. Just because man cannot understand those we classify as "mentally handicapped", does not mean they are indeed spiritually handicapped. </font>[/QUOTE]If this were the case, this would have to apply to all men, not just babies and the handicapped, as God is impartial. I don't believe that. Faith is linked with man's mental abilities. If what Ben Mikaelsen says is true, then faith would be a gift, which it is not.
     
  19. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    It is funny to me, that when we beat this issue up a couple of months ago, it took a huge number of pages to get to this issue. This is an inconsistency in my theology and I gladly admit it. It is a clear sign that most Calvinists aren't driven by logic because we will let this stand.

    My position is this: For the mentally incapable, God provides a way of salvation in Christ so that, even though they are sinners, they go to heaven (based on 2 Sam 12). This is not true for those who "don't hear." There is actually no one who "doesn't hear." As I pointed out, the heavens and creation declare that God exists so that all are without excuse (based on Rom 1). Therefore I take these two passages to be God's revelation on the matter.
     
  20. PASTOR MHG

    PASTOR MHG
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2005
    Messages:
    297
    Likes Received:
    0
    I guess I have not made myself clear enough...forgive me. My concern is not with the destiny of the child, but rather with the surety of David as to the destiny of the child.

    Do Calvinist take this as just an assumption on David's part as to the destiny of the child?
     

Share This Page

Loading...