A question...or maybe two

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Frogman, Mar 16, 2004.

  1. Frogman

    Frogman
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    I had already closed my browser and was praying just now just before going to bed.

    After closing my prayer a discussion came to my mind with a fellow baptist in Canada from an email list.

    This discussion concerns absolutism, (just so you know up front, don't want to be accused of baiting anyone into anything ;) ) so if this is the wrong place for it just clip it and paste it where it goes.

    This could or could not also indirectly or directly relate to the Passion movie.

    ARE YOU AN ABSOLUTER?

    WHY? OR WHY NOT?

    Ok, one more question...

    Why did Joseph's brothers conspire against him?

    Bro. Dallas Eaton

    Oh, and goodnight to all [​IMG]
     
  2. blackbird

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    Brother Dallas!

    Tell me what an "Absoluter" is and I will tell you why Joseph's brothers conspired against him!

    Brother David
     
  3. Frogman

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    I am not absolutely certain :D Naw, not really. I have recently been discussing this among SGLMB abptists.

    I will give my understanding of it and hope and pray that I not step on any toes :(

    An absoluter is someone who believes God predestinated every event, this would include the entrance of sin into the created universe and also in man.

    Is. 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: the LORD do all these things.

    Is often quoted. Now, as to the integrity I have exhibited in presenting this position I cannot say, as to whether I am a full blown absoluter I cannot say; I can say I lean that way as I understand the nature of God not that He is evil, but that of his decrees in eternity.

    I am sure there are those who are absolutely sure of what an absoluter is and hopefully they will enter this discussion. My landmark friends sometimes become difficult to talk to (and you guys thought it was me :D [​IMG] ).

    Oh well, I am content to be what I am by Grace alone and if that is not good enough I will say with an Elder I heard once that I shall die and go to hell believing Jesus is the Son of God and that he died for me.

    (of which were to occur, then the whole Bible is a right wing conspiracy).

    I always say that it is good to know what you believe and why to the best of your ability and understanding and then to be firm in that which you receive as truth.

    I know what I believe as to why the brothers of Joseph conspired against him, just hoping to be able to open a discussion of the topic here.

    Seems like everyone is absolutely staying away from it [​IMG]

    May God Bless
    Bro. Dallas Eaton
     
  4. Bro. James Reed

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    Well, I guess I'll drag myself into it.

    You are correct in your assessment of what true absolutism means.

    Now, we need to look at that verse you quoted. How does one define evil? In a sense of what we feel is evil or what God feels is evil?

    When we think of evil, we usually think of some kind of sin. Now, we know God can not sin, but we do know that God can create evil. IS this contradictory? Not in the least. Evil is a word used by us to describe something that is bad. However, can we say God is bad? In his perfection, God can do anything to his own creatures(us) that he wishes. Who are we to question him? Of course, everything he does for us or to us is for our own benefit.

    For instance, God hardened pharaoh's heart. Pharaoh then refused to let Israel go. God sent the plagues, thus bringing about the same end, while also showing his mighty power to Egypt and Israel. Thus strengthening Israel's belief. That was evil done for good.

    Of course, you could look at it this way. God created all things. But, he didn't buidl all things. He made trees, thus giving us wood and the ability to build homes. Did he build or homes? Not really, but he did sort of. Without him, nothing would be done.

    How can there be light without darkness? How can there be good without evil? Sin entered into the world through man, and death through sin. God didn't "create" sin and death, but he created man who created them, so in a round about way, yes he did create death and sin.

    It's very confusing. All I can say is you need to pray about it because God is the only one who can reveal his truths to you. My feeble attempts are probably doing nothing more than confusing you; and me as well.

    BTW, the term predestination is often used to describe God's will in making things come about when it is the wrong word to use.

    The word predestination means a predetermined destination. In other words, the only thing this is describing is our eternal destination, and I believe also, Christs fulfilling of that(his birth and death on the cross was his destiny).

    Foreordination would be a better word.

    How about Mel Gibson's interview where he said God made his bed. Neat. I wish he would make mine.

    Though he didn't literally make the bed, I can see where we could say he made it possible for us to do so, so he did bring about the making of the bed.

    Anyway, I'll stop now before I have a stroke with all this thinking going on inside my brain.

    I wish my fingers typed as fast as I think.

    God Bless. Bro. James
     
  5. Frogman

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    Thanks Bro. James,
    I haven't moved absolutely to accept this belief.

    I would be more like what you say that God made it possible that we make our own beds.

    I also understand Is. 4 5.7 as you relate it. I have been having this discussion on an email list with some who are adamant about it. They seem to be unable to understand that "IF" it is true, it doesn't matter whether I believe it or not :D

    I believe that Lucifer and man were created, and though I am not in disagreement with you, man did not create sin, neither did Lucifer. The creative act as I understand it is to bring forth something from out of nothing and I know you will agree that only God is able to do this. I am not making any kind of issue about your use of it, but just stating it as such for a clarification.

    Also, then I would think that man and Lucifer (all angels) being created beings and therefore finite because they are finite they bring forth sin.

    Indirectly, you could say God knew this and therefore brought it forth. But, I wouldn't go that far.

    I don't have my Bible and I hate to paraphrase, but I remember reading where Jesus said he came not to bring peace upon the earth but a sword or division, and he continued to say, what will I if it already be kindled.

    These things come from the finite nature of man, though created without sin, had the ability to sin and did, now man is born in that sin nature...etc.

    Just thought there could be a worthy discussion of it here that may help me to understand it a little better.

    Even in disagreement I think there can be learning occur.

    Thanks for posting.
    Bro. Dallas
     
  6. humble servant

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    Predestination is in one sense the lack of free will. God gave is the ability to choose including choosing or rejecting him as Lord and Savior. Sin is of man and Satan. Man was given the choice of knowing sin or living in the Garden forever. God told them that sin did exist but they had the choice. After man ate of the fruit they lost The Holy Spirit and became mortal. This why Jesus Christ's pure self sacrifice allows our redemption. We are Lost without the Holy Spirit indwelling within us. Once he takes that place within our hearts we have Eternal Life which cannot be taken away.
     
  7. Grasshopper

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    Can you give me a scripture reference for this?
     
  8. humble servant

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    Genesis 3: 9-24 The Lords displeasure caused man to fall from his elevated place.
    1. He lost his immortallity
    2. He lost his relationship with God
    3. He was banished from the presence of the Lord
    When a person is lost, the lack of these spirtual attribute are in his/her life. By acceptance of Grace by Faith a person recieves The Holy Spirit which gives Eternal Life, Relationship with Christ, and the ability to enter the throne room through prayer.
     
  9. Grasshopper

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    I agree with #2 and #3. It is #1 that has been bothering me for a while.

    vs 22 of Gen. 3:And Jehovah God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever-

    It seems immortality would come from eating from this tree. They did not eat of the tree, therefore they did not have immortality. It seems God did not want them to live forever under the curse of sin, therefore He took them out of the presence of the tree.

    It also seems to me that immortality only comes through Christ.

    I Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

    So Christ restores what we lost in Adam. I'm of the belief that Adam and Eve were mortal from their creation. It is spiritual death they recieved in the garden, not physical death.

    I'm not sure of this however. Any comments?
     
  10. freeatlast

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    Frogman
    this sounds more like a ultra-calvinist and no I am not one.
     
  11. Frogman

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    Thank you freeatlast for your post. Do you mean a 'hyper-calvinist'?

    The men I know who are absoluters (by their own admission) I have told them I disagree, and these men are not 'hyper-calvinistic. they are missionary baptists who are either engaged in or in support of missions work according to their understanding of the Great Commission.

    I read somewhere that when ever Calvin mashed his hand he would thank God for giving him the opportunity to feel that particular pain at that time.

    Whether that is true or not I don't know. I believe I read it in a commentary on his commentary, so it may only be second hand information.

    I will look when I get home the book is a commentary of Calvin's Institutes.

    God Bless
    Bro. Dallas Eaton
     
  12. freeatlast

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    Hello frogman,
    no I meant ultra-calvinist. To best understand the term go here.
    http://www.biblefragrances.com/studies/ChaferA.html
    As I said I am not one. I do understand how someone might hold the view. I hold both the view that God chooses, not hopes for, His elect, which the scriptures teach and that we decide if we want to be in the chosen. I do not say I can explain it, but the bible teaches both so i hold both as true.
    If that seems strange or impossible it is not. I also believe in One God, not three. However the Father is God, the Son is God and the Spirit is God. Three literal distinct persons making one God. I cannot explain that either, but this too is what scripture teaches.
     
  13. Bro. James Reed

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    Genesis 2:17

    But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


    We know that they didn't die that day. So, either they were made spiritually dead, they began to physically die, or both. I'm of the opinion that it was both.

    Romans 5:12

    12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    Again, is this corporal death or spiritual death or both? Again I belive it's both.

    Man was made perfect. Perfection can not die. Man then made himself imperfect, causing death to pass upon himself.

    How long did they live in the Garden? Why did people live so long back then? Could it be that, since there had been no death before, there had also been no disease or famine, etc.?
     
  14. Grasshopper

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    We know for sure they spiritually died that day. However, it is an assumption that they began to die physically since, as far as I know, there is no scripture supporting that. That of course does not make the assumption wrong.

    Clearly speaking of spiritual death. Again the assumption it also includes physical.

    Can something made perfect die? Christ comes to mind. The question is if Christ would not have chosen to die would He eventually die?

    I believe the only scpritual death passed on is spiritual. Though I don't rule out physical I just can't find it in scripture.

    What kind of death are we speaking of? Did plants die to feed the animals and Adam? Did bacteria exist? Did oxen step on ants and kill them?

    I have come to believe that we have just assumed physical death came with the fall. That might be true, but I find no evidence in scripture. It is said in scripture, "It is appointed man once to die" was that in effect before or after the fall? I tend to believe before the fall. But now I assume.

    What if the Tree of Life gave spiritual immortality and they did not eat of it? And the only way to regain that spiritual immortality was in Christ. Does spiritual immortality also mean eternal exixtence and does spiritual death also mean eternal exixtence? Can one be physically mortal and spiritually mortal yet exist eternally?

    Help :(
     
  15. Bro. James Reed

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    Help

    Sorry. What I wrote is as far as I go with this. This is one of those scriptures that keeps getting more confusing the more you seem to understand it.

    Is it biblical to say I don't know?
     
  16. Grasshopper

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    I hope so.
     
  17. GODzThunder

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    "Quote by Frogman"
    An absoluter is someone who believes God predestinated every event, this would include the entrance of sin into the created universe and also in man.

    "end quote"

    If God predestined every event including the entrance of sin then that is taking predestination to the point that we are merely puppets in God's grand design. Calvinism comes into play revealing that we cannot even come to salvation unless God dangles it before us and then pulls the strings so that we may nah, MUST accept it. If this is true then this logic applies ... We are puppets and what we do we have no true control over since God ordained it. When I stand up in sin I have no control over that sin so I am not to blame. The gun does not kill, people who hold the gun kills. If God ordains me to sin then I cannot morally be held reponsible for my actions. It can be said that I was going to be a sinner anyways but that is only because God ordained me. Had he willed to ordain me to be good I would be good. Therefore according to this theory of absolutism, God is a sinner in making people sin. This goes against all that is truth and thus it is severely flawed
     
  18. GODzThunder

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    It is fitting to say in the case of Joseph as well as many of the people of the Bible that God does guide history into his will. He does not force people to do his will but seeks those whom he foreknows will accept his calling. He then guides their lives to fit into his tapestry of design. Moses was chosen before he was born but God knew his choice would be yes Lord! God is all knowing that is a biblical fact. This is not the same as all controling though. We do have a say in the matter, our choice (or future choice) is what God bases our life path upon. Sounds confusing? If God could be fully understood then he is not much of a God is he?
     
  19. Frogman

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    I agree with you concerning absolutism. however, I disagree with your conclusions regarding Calvinism.

    I do beleive the doctrines of Grace.

    Bro. Dallas Eaton
     

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