A question that I hope to get an answer for

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by ILUVLIGHT, Sep 16, 2003.

  1. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT
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    Hi Everyone;
    Every message board I go to where there are Calvinist it seems they all tell you are either a Calvinist or Arminian. In the last few days I have been looking for and found an explanation of Both faiths and believe me with the exception of one point I do not line up with Arminianism and no where in the Calvinist tulip.

    When I first came here I thought I was Calvinist. Then after reading some of your arguments I began to realize that this was not the case. I believe in Christ and I admit that I may not be as well trained in doctrine as some of you obviously are. I can read though, and I have to tell you that God's word does not say what either side claims as I see it thus far.

    Both sides claim Total depravity. Which is just not provable from scripture as I see it.

    If one or two of you would care to give your scriptures to back up this claim. I really would like to see them. I mean no disrespect to any of you as I'm sure most of you could dance circles around me with quotes. I've spent a lot of time going through previous post on 3 sites trying to find an explanation that makes since to me.
    May God Bless You.
    Mike
     
  2. Johnv

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    One of the problems is that many people dont' know what "total depravity" is. Many define "total depravity" as the complete inability of man to do anything good. This is not biblically supportable. Rather, the definition of "total depravity" is the inability of man to do anything perfect according to God's plan. This is biblically supportable.
     
  3. tyndale1946

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    Total Depravity tells me that when Adam sinned he being the federal head and representative of ALL mankind... When he sinned and ate of the forbidden fruit... His entire being was polluted... His flesh... His spirit the whole man Adam... Ergo we also are being from his loins... If not there is no reason for Jesus Christ as there is some good in man whereas the scriptures state plainly there is NOT!... He is SIN!... Thru and thru!... And must have a redeemer to satisfy the God he sinned against... Again if we have the ability to say yea or nay where is grace and can we call it that if it depends on us instead of Christ!... David says... I was shapen in iniquity and in sin did my mother conceive me!... I'm sure there are other brethren that can add to these verses to show that Total Depravity is not the exception but the rule... And God made the rules!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  4. Me2

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    Man is born with a cursed spirit within us.

    it is totaly unacceptable before Gods holiness.

    If man is to be acceptable before God. Man needs to obtain a different spirit other than the one he was born with. one that is equal in righteousness and holiness with God.

    mans soul must be joined with Jesus Christ Spirit to be acceptable.

    by faith the believer accepts the truth that mans cursed and depraved spirit is seperated from mans soul and body, judged and thrown into death. that the believers soul is joined with a new completely different and righteous spirit of Jesus Christ and returned into the believers body of flesh and bones.

    Mans cursed spirit is totally depraved of God.


    take for example this parable.

    Luk 5:36 And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was [taken] out of the new agreeth not with the old.
    Luk 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
    Luk 5:38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.
    Luk 5:39 No man also having drunk old [wine] straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.


    whereas the bottle is the spirit and the wine is knowledge and nature of God.

    that the old cannot be joined with the new. the old must be discarded. it is useless and unusable.

    the old is totally depraved
     
  5. Yelsew

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    [You know better ... ]

    The Scriptures reveal that Man is born with the Knowledge of Good and Evil that is handed down from generation to generation. Neither good nor evil has an effect on man until man acts on either of them. Man is not born a sinner, but becomes one through the process of sin's seducting of man into sinning. It is just the same as Eve in the Garden. She did not sin until she was seduced into it, likewise Adam thereafter. From the time they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, that knowledge became inbedded into the very nature of man. That incidentally is why God cast them from the garden, so they would not likewise eat of the tree of life and live forever with the knowledge of good and evil. Hmmm, Just the same as God!

    [ September 17, 2003, 08:46 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
     
  6. Me2

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    Yelsew,

    First, man does not know any good or evil as expressed by God. man has the written law of God, but can only accept this through their carnal understanding. which eliminates any knowledge that the carnal mind cannot comprehend or use in their selfish lives. which is all of the law.
    cursed man will never understand God. they can only imagine what he is like in their darkened and corrupted imaginations.

    Why?

    there are only two types of spirits. Righteous and unrighteous. sinless or containing sin.

    In 1 John there is mentioned an identification of the spiritual enemy of God... antichrist.

    1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
    1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
    1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

    ("now already in the world", try BEEN IN the world from the first day of creation)

    this is the spirit that contains sin. the one that cursed adam introduced to mankind and all cursed men are identified with. the spirit that all mankind is born with. the one containing sin.

    the antichrist spirit is totally depraved of God and the other containing Christ spirit the fullness of God.

    christ or antichrist. both are spiritually opposite from each other.

    isnt that easy to accept.

    so here's the trick. all civilization is born with the antichrist spirit. this spirit must be judged in the individual and replaced with the righteous spirit of Christ so that the individual can be accepted righteous before God the Father.

    but lets complicate this.. this antichrist spirit can be identified further in 3 ways.
    the world, flesh and devil. or lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh, and pride of life..

    (John calls them. antichrist, false prophet and devil)

    can we say for 4000 years that the spirit of Christ on planet earth was non existant in man?. yep..

    now yelsew, one can easily find the supporting scriptures concerning the antichrist spirit.

    God only has ONE enemy, or spirit archtype.

    Me2
     
  7. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Everyone; [​IMG]
    Yesterday I had a little more time on my hands than I usually do and I got to know this Bible program on this computer, a little better.

    My old computer had one to, but I think it was about 12 years old and wasn't as advanced as this one.

    I knew it had these different refference tools on it, but I hadn't taken the time to educate myself in there use. Any way I punched in total depravity in it and got so many references you wouldn't believe. I've checked most of them out from Gen. to Mat. While after what I have read I have to admit that man is infact sinful but no where as yet do I see that he is totally depraved.

    I guess the reason I thought I was a Calvinist was because of a gentileman in my home town church. Mr Oliver was a guy who just couldn't wait to strike up conversation with you after church. He seemed to catch me before I'd get out of the sanctuary. I always tryed to be nice to him simply becasue most avoided him. He liked to talk and would keep you there untill the evening services started if you let him.

    This is where I got the Idea I was a calvinist because he always was speaking way over my head about different theological issues. Using words that I had to wait until I got home to look it up to find out what it meant, and most times by then I couldn't remember what the word was. I'm definetly not an English major

    Any way I couldn't stand it last night. I called my old minister and asked him which he preached a Calvinist view or Arminian. Whoa; did he give me sermon. Turns out he doesn't preach either doctrine but the doctrine of Jesus Christ. He said that both these doctrines came out of the reformation in other words the Catholic church. and that the Baptist theology that is the original theology predates the both of them.

    Something else he told was there is so many different theologies under the Baptist title. That you have to really pay attention to what is being said by any of them in order to not be confused.

    I know you all are probably thinking that I don't know what I believe, but you'd be wrong. I know what I believe. I just assoiated it with something that I had the wrong idea about.

    I wonder have any of you heard of DR. gregory Baker. My old pastor is sending me some material on this subject that is written by him. After I'm through reading it I can share it with you inorder to talk about it.In other words Calvinism isn't what I thought it was.

    Thankyou all for being kind to an uninformed christian. [​IMG] I like them instant graemlins
    May God Bless You All.
    Mike
     
  8. Me2

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  9. tyndale1946

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    I'm so glad you found direction wherever it leads you in your belief... I'm glad I have the belief I have and share it with others... They want to believe it fine... If they don't fine!... As you have other questions on your journey in this life NEVER be afraid to seek counsel even though you may disagree with the answers you receive... Those who do not ask do not grow in the Lord... God bless you in your journey... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  10. Yelsew

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    Me2 asked, and stated,
    Me2,

    Can you state that the Spirit of Christ did not exist prior to his being manifest in the flesh? I could start in Genesis and list for you several hundred references through out the scriptures that refer to the Spirit of God.

    Jesus is identified in scripture as being part of the eternal Godhead. Jesus, Himself, declared that God is Spirit and those who worship Him must worship in Spirit and in Truth. Do you deny the Triune Godhead, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?

    Do you deny that God the Son is an eternal being, from before the foundation of the world, that He is the designated Lamb of God, slain from the Foundation of the world?
     
  11. massdak

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    you are wrong here, Jesus said no one is good except God. humanly speaking a person may call another person good in some respects, but man is not righteous. depravity and being a slave to sin is the problem and Christ is the answer. you need to understand some of these fundamentals and believe the gospel.
     
  12. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Me2; [​IMG]
    I certainly hope that you don't think I follow Dr Bakers ideas about calvinist. I read the article at the site you listed.
    In my opinion for what it's worth, Calvinist as long as they believe that Jesus Christ is who he said He is, according to the bible the rest is really unimportant. I've read a lot of you all's post here and haven't seen one person deny the diety of Christ. So long as you believe the truth of believing in Christ as our savior. Then you are saved. I'd be affraid to judge another's salvation it's not my job.Besides I wouldn't be qualified.
    I don't see Calvinism as anything that causes one to loose there soul.As dr baker implies with the title of his message. Maybe he's a bit over zealious
    May God Bless You.
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  13. Me2

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    ILUVLIGHT,

    I was just being courteous to find Mr. Bakers opinions and allow others to make their own determinations.

    I am a strong believer in Total Depravity of Man and the Total Sovereignty of God.

    unlike Mr. Baker opinions.

    Me2
     
  14. dhfahrenkrug

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    TO ILUVLIGHT;
    I'm sorry to read that you no longer believe in ANY of the position that has become known as TULIP. It is the pure gospel. I was an -- uhh arminian at one point because I didn't understand that REGENERATION proceeds faith.
    You, as far as I am concerned, have to accept all 5 points of "TULIP" or none of the points. To be a "4"point is to live in confusion -- and if I may humbly submit -- to live in error. At least that is the way I see it.
     
  15. Yelsew

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    That is the reason the debate "Calvinism vs Arminianism" rages on! There are those who hold strictly to 5 point calvinism while the vast majority of believers do not!
     
  16. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi dhfarenkrug; [​IMG]
    It's not that I had ever believed in Calvinism. Its that I didn't know what Calvinism is. I'm Learning about it as we post. I didn't really know what Arminianism is either. But just as you say you have to accept all 5 points in order to be a Calvinist. I would assume that this would be the case for Arminianism as well. I can only say that at this point, I'm not sure just where I stand. I don't see Arminianism as what I believe either thus far.

    I'm not experinced enough to claim exactly any doctrine thus far. I believe that Christ died for me. I believe that to believe in Him as my savior means that I'm saved. I've only come here to learn. I couldn't debate with you as yet because the truth of it is I don't know scripture as well as these guy's who come here.

    From what I've learned so far by comming to Christian sites such as this one. If you're not careful in quoting scripture you could actually drive some away from the gosple.

    At another site I've read about how the word being a two edge sword can cut to the bone. and we need to be careful just how we swing that sword. Since it has a double edge it cuts both ways. From some things I've read here this is true here as well.

    There is one thing I know for sure when I came to the Lord it changed me I'm no longer that person I was before. I don't have the same desires that I had before. I now want what God wants. I love Him and can't get enough knowledge about Him. I feel He wants me to learn about Him and this is what I'm here for. While doctrine is important nothing is as important as what God wants.

    I am intrested in both Calvinism and Arminianism. Mostly because they seem to oppose each other and I wonder why when both sides do acknowledge that the other is saved. But until I'm sure of what each profess is actually true I can't say that I agree with either.

    What I know for sure is fairly elementry, but watch out I learn fast hehehe!

    May God Bless You.
    Mike
     
  17. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    You do not have ot believe in all five points. Calvinism turns on believing in teh sovereingty of God in salvation, whether is is initiated and completed solely of God, or whether man contributes. The specific number of points is not necessarily teh issue. This is often confused by people who have not clearly thought through all the issues and thus do not understand that the system does not hinge on the humber of points, but rather the belief in controlling sovereignty.
     
  18. dhfahrenkrug

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    Iluvlight and Pastor Larry:
    Iluvlight I understand and respect your search for the truth. You make the statement that doctrine is not that important, but what is important is what the Lord wants. I guess I would say that is backwards. The way to KNOW what the Lord wants, is to study His revealed word. And that is what DOCTRINE is all about.
    Pastor Larry: I really do believe that one, to be consistent, has to believe and understand ALL 5 points, or one will be in CONFUSION.
    Of course God is Sovereign and that is the main point. However, if salvation depends on man's choice, then man's choice is sovereign and not God. These points have been debated over and over again so we don't need to go over it again.
    Pastor Larry, have you heard of George N.H. Peters "The Theocratic Kingdom.?" The 3-vol set was written in the 1800s by a Lutheran Minister. It is the most detailed, best work on the subject of dispensationalism that I have every read. What a brilliant work!!!
     
  19. Yelsew

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    DOCTRINE is man's perspective of the revealed word! That is, the revealed word with a slant which is controlled by perception of the one originating the particular doctrine. Calvinism is Doctrine with Calvin's slant, Arminianism is doctrine with Arminius' slant, and Catholicism is Doctrine with a Roman or Eastern Orthodox, or Byzantine slant. That is why the debates and arguments over doctrine continue to rage on.
     
  20. dhfahrenkrug

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    Yelsew:
    To a certain degree doctrine does have one's slant. But are you saying that the Apostolic teachings, for example from Paul, is just his "slant?"
    Personally, I believe that there is biblical doctrine revealed to us through the scriptures. That doctrine is objective and does not depend on one's personal "slant" or worse yet, one's subjective opinion.
    The inspired words of scripture were brought to us in writing so one can look objectively at what is written and CONFORM one's theology to that REVEALED WORD.
    In my experience, most people just can't stand the idea that their salvation comes from God's good pleasure, and they have NOTHING to to with it.
    I guess what I'm trying to say is that their are objective standards, and DOCTRINE that is either true or false. Salvation either depends on God Alone, or it depends on man's free choice. Those are contradictory positions. Both can't be true and the same time. One is true, one is false.

    Creeds, while very helpful, are uninspired men's opinions. Creeds can be wrong.The scriptures are inspired and teach ABSOLUTE DOCTRINE.
    I have a very, very high opinion of scripture, and a very long opinion of most men's OPINIONS. Of course we can learn from the great man of God like Luther, Calvin, Knox, Spurgeon, John Owens, Arthur Pink, and on and on. But every position in theology must not be in conflict with scripture, otherwise it has to be disgarded.
    How can someone read the 10th chapter of John, or Eph, chapters 1 and 2 and think that THEY have something to do with their own salvation? God doesn't "cooperate" with a dead, fallen, depraved, God-hating sinner to see if that person will "accept" the work of the Atonement. In fact, like Lydia in, I believe Acts. 16:14, a person can't even savingly hear the gospel unless their heart and mind is OPENED so they can.
    Peace
    Don Fahrenkrug
     

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