A Question

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by OldRegular, Jun 28, 2009.

  1. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    I had prepared this question to post on the Pastor Qualifications thread but it was closed before I could post it. First a few points:

    First: It is no secret to those who read my posts on this forum that I consider classic dispensationalism an erroneous doctrine.

    Second; It is also no secret that I consider hyper or ultra dispensationalism, or any doctrine that teaches there are two Gospels, to be heretical and blasphemous.

    Third: From a political viewpoint I am pro Israel but not because of any promise made to Abraham. I am Abraham's seed; the Jews are not, they reject Jesus Christ. I am also pro Israel from a political standpoint because they are a bulwark against Islam in the Middle East. I suppose I am in part pro Israel out of the perversity of human nature; Europeans don't like Israel. I would also say this: I believe that Israel exists only because if the guilty conscience of the Europeans, and possibly the US, over the Holocaust. Furthermore, I believe that dispensational doctrine has influenced American foreign policy toward Israel.

    Fourth: I have not heard previously any of the information that Pilgrim2009 is posting so I am unable to judge him as some on this Forum have already done, calling for his ouster. I am familiar with Canfield's book on Scofield. Frankly I find some of the stuff Ituttut posts to be more offensive that that of Pilgrim2009 since it is clearly teaching the heresy of two Gospels.

    Now at last to the question. The Jews are anti Christian; the Muslims are anti Christian; the Hindus are anti Christian. Why then is it such a grievous sin to be anti semitic and yet not such a grievous sin to be anti Islam or anti Hindu, or anti any other ethnic or religious group? I have not seen anyone on this forum taken to the woodshed over making anti Islamic remarks.

    And lest anyone wonder I know that my Savior Jesus Christ was a Jew in His human nature.
     
    #1 OldRegular, Jun 28, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 28, 2009
  2. BaptistBob

    BaptistBob
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2007
    Messages:
    285
    Likes Received:
    0

    Since you and I appear to agree on everything (except your contra-Biblical Calvinism :smilewinkgrin:), I’m glad I get to respond first. I would say that "anti-Semitism" is prejudice or hostility towards Jews, but not exclusively their religion. In other words, your disagreement with them is an academic one, based upon differences of opinion on religion, but not based upon racial or ethnic bias. For example, you would have no bias against a Christian Jew (I hope), so you could not be accused of anti-Semitism.

    In a politically correct world, however, to not affirm the opinion of someone who disagrees with you (except for white, male Christians), you could be accused of anti-Semitism.
     
    #2 BaptistBob, Jun 28, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 28, 2009
  3. Me4Him

    Me4Him
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2004
    Messages:
    2,214
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

    27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

    28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

    God never made such a "Covenant" with any other "RACE" of people.

    The "Last week" of Daniel's prophecy for "THY PEOPLE" (Israel) is still in the future, the "Trib period".

    Ro 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid.
     
  4. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    What does all that have to do with the question in the OP? By the way, the Deliverer came out of Zion 2000 years ago and the last week of Daniel was fulfilled about 2000 years ago. But back to the question in the OP.
     
    #4 OldRegular, Jun 28, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 28, 2009
  5. stilllearning

    stilllearning
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2008
    Messages:
    1,814
    Likes Received:
    2
    Hello OldRegular

    If the question of your OP is..........
    I believe that me4him answered your question;
    (Because the Jews are still God’s people.)

    But I am not surprised that you don’t believe that, being as you reject “dispensationalism”.
    --------------------------------------------------
    But I have a question for you.

    Undoubtedly you flatly reject any kind of a 7 year tribulation period, or for that matter a 1000 millennial reign of Christ.

    My I ask your eschatology. How do you think this is all going to end?
     
  6. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    I will speak from the point of view of the laws of the nation which I live in. It is against the law to speak "hatefully" against any ethnic people, sex, minority of any kind, etc. In written form it is called hate literature. It is against the law to propagate hate literature of any form.

    Propagating hate literature is not the same as reporting the facts.
    I don't hate Catholics, but I can report the facts about their religion.
    The same is true concerning Islam. These two religions have persecuted many Christians in the past years. Their religions are not of God, but are of the devil. This can be demonstrated through the Bible.

    The Judaism of this day is a false religion. Today a Jew must trust on Christ, just as a Muslim or a Catholic, or a Hindu.
    The above is not hate literature. It may sound harsh and hateful, but it is not.

    Anti-Semitisim examples are the allegations that the holocaust did not exist;
    The Jews control the money (and thus the evil) in America (and the world).

    All this hype and false allegations are wrong.
    Islam wants nothing more than to drive Israel off the face of the earth and into the sea. They are a most anti-Semitic religion and people. Thus their nations are anti-Semitic. For those nations have an anti-Jewish bias and will stand before God because of it. No other nation in the world has been made the scapegoat for so much evil as the Jewish nation, when in reality they have been innocent of it. The holocaust is only an example of one such events. Some of these nations were angered when the UN gave Israel a "nation" status in 1948, and officially their own land back to them.

    Perhaps the question should be asked: Why are so many people, nations, religions, etc. anti-Semitic? I would like to know the answer.
     
  7. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    My eschatology is Biblical. When Jesus Christ returns there will be a general resurrection and judgment [before the great White Throne] of all the dead [John 5:28, 29]. Those who died in Adam will be cast into the Lake of Fire along with Satan. Those who died in Jesus Christ will dwell throughout eternity in the New Heavens and New Earth with God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

    Since you are admittedly "still learning" there is hope for you!
     
  8. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    They will be judged by God because of their rejection of Jesus Christ, just as all who do so; not because of their anti-Jewish bias!

    Just what do you mean by a Jewish nation? I know only of the nation of Israel.

    So were the Jews of 2000 years ago guilty of the death of Jesus Christ?

    You really did not answer the question posed in the OP. Why is it a greater sin [apparently some believe it is the unforgivable sin] to be anti semetic as opposed to being anti Islam or anti Hindu. Also I suppose I can now add anti Roman Catholic?
     
    #8 OldRegular, Jun 29, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 29, 2009
  9. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    You will be judged for your racial prejudice, period. Those who hold ethnic bias against other races are more prone to hold a bias against Jews as well.

    James 2:4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?
    --If you are biased in any way you are become a judge of evil thoughts.
    That is quite true. Anti-Jewish bias is sin. We shall all give before the judgment seat of Christ. Don't think that God is going to overlook it. Everything will be manifest in that day.

    In the Great White Throne Judgement, everything also will be manifest, even anti-Jewish bias.

    For those that go through the tribulation, there will be a judgement of the nations. Those nations that are not friendly to the Jews will be condemned. Those that are friendly to the Jews will not be condemned. Read of the event called the "judgement of the nations," and see.

    Then you don't study your Bible.
    Who does Paul pray for:
    Romans 9:3-5 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
    --He prays for the people, the nation of Israel that eventually were scattered in 70 A.D. They were his people, "my kinsman according to the flesh, who are Israelites."

    To these same people were promised a land, and after a long dispersion came back to that land in 1948. What Paul calls Israel in Romans 9 was officially made a nation in 1948 by the U.N. and given land. That nation of Jews or Israel Paul writes about again:

    Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    No, whatever gave you that Idea? What tribe would you be of?

    I answered your question; you just did not accept my answer.
     
  10. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    1. I wish I could say like Festus did to Paul: "much learning doth make thee mad". Unfortunately your dispensational error has clouded your judgment.

    2. Those who died in Jesus Christ will stand before the Great White Throne and hear "Enter thou into the joy of the Lord."

    3. Those who died in Adam will stand before the Great White Throne and hear "Depart from me I never knew you".

    4. The Deliverer came out of Zion 2000 years ago.

    5. Of course Paul prayed for his kinsmen. I pray for my kinsmen and others. Don't you?

    6. God did not bring Israel to Palestine, the UN did. Scripture tells us in Deuteronomy 30:1ff that God will not bring Israel back to the land unless they "return to the Lord thy God". That means they must come as believers in Jesus Christ as Savior. I doubt you will find many of these in Israel.

    7. And finally if you look at Acts 2:23 Peter tells the Jews: "Him being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, Ye have taken and by wicked hands have crucified and slain." Sounds like they are guilty to me.

    And you really did not answer the question in the OP. You beat around the bush.
     
  11. pilgrim2009

    pilgrim2009
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2009
    Messages:
    291
    Likes Received:
    0



    OR have you ever seen a copy of C.I.Scofields divorce papers?

    I wanted to share so as my so-called slander of him would be vindicated.I do apologize to DHK for any offence.

    Scofield divorce.

    http://poweredbychrist.homestead.com/files/cyrus/scofield.htm

    Also Pastor John Hagee divorced his first wife and mother of two of his children.This is public records and is slander in no way and I apologize DHK if you see it that way.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hagee




    In Jesus.

    Steven.
     
  12. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    How in the world does divorce status affect an exegetical question? The questions here should be about biblical exegesis, not about someone's marital status.

    It's no wonder you are confused.
     
  13. pilgrim2009

    pilgrim2009
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2009
    Messages:
    291
    Likes Received:
    0


    I never got a chance to to post the links in my defence the thread was closed.I will let it go and how does proving someone unbiblical in the pulpit as divorced confuses me?

    That is being confused.

    In love.

    Steven.
     
  14. tinytim

    tinytim
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/tim2.jpg>

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2003
    Messages:
    11,250
    Likes Received:
    0

    Anti Hindu is against the religion of Hinduism
    Anti Islam is against the religion of Islam
    Anti Semitic is against a race of people...

    A better term would be Anti Judaism...
    which I am because Judaism will lead people to Hell.

    The Bible clearly teaches that the Seed of Abraham is Jesus.. NOT current Israel..
    The true descendants of Abraham are the ones securely IN the Seed of Abraham, IOWS the born again believers...

    Being born physically a descendant of Abraham is NOTHING special.. they must still be born again... spiritually into the Seed of Abraham... Jesus.
     
    #14 tinytim, Jun 29, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 29, 2009
  15. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is incoherent to me. I have no idea what you are trying to say.

    Again I ask, how does someone's marital status have any affect on a question of biblical exegesis?
     
  16. pilgrim2009

    pilgrim2009
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2009
    Messages:
    291
    Likes Received:
    0

    It doesn`t or does it?.Since Pauls Pastorial Epistles lays out the qualifications to be a Pastor then having two wives by marriage and divorce and re-marriage would dis-qualify them yet one is still in the pulpit un-qualified and the other died un-qualified.

    Self called not God called and that is biblical exegesis on Pauls Pastorial Epistles.God said it and I believe it and that settles it case closed.Amen.


    God bless.

    Steven.
     
  17. pilgrim2009

    pilgrim2009
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2009
    Messages:
    291
    Likes Received:
    0


    Now that Sir is Biblical Teaching.

    Could you please tell me where the ethnic unbelievers are promised a restoration of the land in this condition?Isnt todays eschatology on this completely contradictory to God`s Word?

    God bless you.

    Steven.
     
  18. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    Typically the books in question are called "Pastoral Epistles." None the less, you previous thread was about dispensationalism (largely) and appeared an attempt to refute dispensationalism by showing that Scofield and Hagee are bad men.

    Whether or not Scofield, Hagee, or anyone else are disobedient is irrelevant to the exegetical question of issues concerning ecclesiology and eschatology.

    Again, this is a sentence that makes no grammatical sense. I have no idea what you are trying to say.

    FYI: The fact that you believe it is also irrelevant. God said it, and that's the end of it. Now, if God indeed reveals what is called dispensationalism, that settles it, whether or not you believe it, and whether or not Scofield or Hagee (neither of whom I have anything to do with) were bad men or blades of grass in the prairie.
     
    #18 Pastor Larry, Jun 29, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 29, 2009
  19. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    The simple statement of fact that these men are divorced is not slander.
    But you never stated that, even though I asked you to.
    I know that these men are divorced, but that has no bearing on the rightness or wrongness of dispensationalism. If dispensationalism rises or falls on a person's character then covenant theology has much to give account for.

    You do realize don't you, that the entire Roman Catholic Church bases their theology on Covenant Theology. Using your logic Covenant Theology must be the most heretical theology one could possibly encounter. Just think of the Inquistions and the Crusades, and the result of millions of innocent believers cruelly martyred at their hands--at the hands of Covenant Theologians.
    Does it rise or fall on the character of other men?
    Or does it rise or fall on the Word of God, which is the final authority of all of our doctrine in faith and practice.
     
  20. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    You are incorrect unless you can prove otherwise. Covenant Theology is the product of the Reformation as shown in the following.

    http://www.gospelpedlar.com/articles/Bible/cov_theo.html

    INTRODUCTION: ON COVENANT THEOLOGY

    J. I. Packer

    The name of Herman Wits (Witsius, 1636-1 708) has been unjustly forgotten. He was a masterful Dutch Reformed theologian, learned, wise, mighty in the Scriptures, practical and "experimental" (to use the Puritan label for that which furthers heart-religion). On paper he was calm, judicious, systematic, clear and free from personal oddities and animosities. He was a man whose work stands comparison for substance and thrust with that of his younger British contemporary John Owen, and this writer, for one, knows no praise higher than that! To Witsius it was given, in the treatise here reprinted, to integrate and adjudicate explorations of covenant theology carried out by a long line of theological giants stretching back over more than century and a half to the earliest days of the Reformation. On this major matter Witsius's work has landmark status as summing up a whole era, which is why it is appropriate to reprint it today. However, in modern Christendom covenant theology has been unjustly forgotten, just as Witsius himself has, and it will not therefore be amiss to spend a little time reintroducing it, in order to prepare readers' minds for what is to come.*


    http://www.frame-poythress.org/frame_articles/1999Covenant.htm

    Covenant and the Unity of Scripture
    by John M. Frame
    Prof. of Apologetics and Systematic Theology
    Westminster Theological Seminary in California
    *
    Reformed theologians have commonly found in the covenant*motif a helpful way to show forth the unity of the Bible.*Traditionally, these writers have found in Scripture two major*covenants, sometimes called the covenant of works and the*covenant of grace. The former embraces the pre-fall period. In it*God offers an eternal life of blessedness (symbolized by the tree*of life) to Adam and Eve on the condition that they abstain from*the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. After*the fall into sin, God sets forth the covenant of grace: a*promise of redemption through the divine messiah received through*faith alone.

    The covenant of grace, in turn, encompasses, on the*traditional view, all the post-fall historical covenants*including those with Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, and the*"New Covenant" effected by the blood of Jesus himself, of which*the earlier covenants are but anticipations.

    On this understanding, the whole Bible, diverse in*content as it may appear at first sight, can be seen as a story*of God making covenants and man responding to them. The books of*law show what God expects of his covenant people. The books of*history indicate man's actual response. The Psalms contain the*praise, the laments, the questionings, the blessings and cursings*which should be on the lips of a covenant people. The wisdom*books contain applications of the covenant law to human problems.*The prophets bring God's covenant lawsuit against the covenant*breakers while at the same time promising covenant renewal. The*Gospels and Acts present the history of the New Covenant, which*is applied to believers and to world history in the epistles and*Revelation.
     

Share This Page

Loading...