A Tale of Two Faiths

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Protestant, Feb 28, 2015.

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  1. Protestant

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    Not willing to resist the Holy Spirit’s calling to pick up my quill and write, I humbly submit A Tale of Two Faiths for those curious souls who ponder the truth of the eternal question, ‘What’s faith got to do with it?’

    Christian: Hello there, friend. I see by the color of your cloak, the golden cross around your neck and the thick black Bible book under your arm that you are a Christian Preacher Man.

    Preacher Man: Indeed, that is true. You have large discernment, friend.

    Christian: I also take it you have had years of professional Bible training, whereby you have earned a diploma signifying you are an approved Preacher and Teacher of God’s Holy Word……a man to be trusted.

    Preacher Man: Top of my class with honors, sir.

    Christian: And yet you believe and teach that your faith was not the gift of God?

    Preacher Man: All men have faith. Faith is innate in all men. Therefore, it cannot be God’s gift to men.

    Christian: The question is not whether unregenerate men have fleshly faith. That is a given. It is the only faith possible for them. The question pertains to saving faith…..righteous faith which justifies.

    But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness.

    It is this righteous, justifying faith which is in contention.

    You dare to confess that you were born again after you believed.

    Preacher Man: I proudly confess it.

    Christian: You claim to have produced righteous, justifying saving faith as an unregenerate, dead to God, blind and deaf to the truth-idolatrous-whoremongering rebel?

    Preacher Man: That’s right. So?

    Christian: Then God must be a liar. For Jesus teaches the impossibility of unregenerate man producing anything good which is pleasing to God.
    Have you not heard that they that are in the flesh cannot please God?

    To prove His point Jesus uses many metaphors including this parable:

    And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.
    37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
    38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.
    39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.


    Preacher Man: So? What has this to do with me?

    Christian: You claim God accepted your profane fleshly faith and patched it into His glorious regal robe of righteousness which you now presume to wear? Preposterous.

    Have you never heard the expression: ‘Take your stinking paws off me, you damn dirty ape.’

    God is holier than Charlton Heston. He will not tolerate His perfect righteousness patched with your flawed filthy faith.

    Furthermore, your unregenerate heart is the old bottle which cannot hold the fruit of the Spirit. The new wine of the Spirit must needs a new heart/bottle.

    Only the gracious power of God can make such a change.

    Have you not heard of Jesus changing the water to wine?

    That, my friend, is not only the first miracle performed by Jesus, but it was the first miracle which anticipated the miracle of His Elect Bride’s regeneration.

    The last verse of this parable is particularly telling:

    39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

    The natural unregenerate man does not desire the new wine of a holy God.

    He prefers his old wine: the stinking wine of his old sinful, rotten fleshly fruit.

    What say you now, Preacher Man?

    Preacher Man: I say you are interpreting the Scriptures as allegory created by the heretic Origen. Good day, sir!
     
  2. steaver

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    I will let Preacher Man speak for himself, which I presume is none other than a figment of your imagination, but I do like how you present Christian's case in this segment. I particularly like the part I bolded. It's good Christian recognizes there was no such miracle as regeneration until after Jesus Christ was glorified.
     
    #2 steaver, Mar 1, 2015
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  3. Iconoclast

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    This looks like it was taken from a few of the posts on BB...:thumbs::type::thumbs:
     
  4. InTheLight

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    Awesome! You've given your strawmen the gift of conversation. Kewl!

    [​IMG]
     
  5. DHK

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    Isa 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.
    --Note that it was rebellious Israel that chose without any influence from God to do evil. She did so out of her own free will. And thus God "chose" the type of judgement that Israel would receive, a judgment befitting of her rebellion. They both chose. They chose in time, time relevant to man. God lives outside of time and does things within the scope of man's being.
    However, He being outside of time lives in eternity where there is no time. Time is absent. He is also omniscient. His omniscience does not interfere with either his choice or man's choice which he in His sovereignty has given him.
    In the same respect God answers prayer. He desires us to pray. He answers prayer in our time even though he knows the outcome. The outcome is not predetermined. He knows what it will be according to his omniscience. That is different. He has given man the free choice whether or not to pray, whether or not to do evil. It is obvious from Isa.66:4.
     
  6. Iconoclast

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    DHK

    :thumbsup:
    :thumbsup:



    :eek:



    :eek:
     
  7. Iconoclast

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    If Predestination is True--Why Pray?

    C.H. Spurgeon






    An objection has been raised which is very ancient indeed, and has a great appearance of force. It is raised not so much by sceptics, as by those who hold a part of the truth; it is this—that prayer can certainly produce no result, because of the decrees of God have settled everything, and those decrees are immutable. Now we have no desire to deny the assertion that the decrees of God have settled all events. It is our full belief that God has foreknown and predestinated everything that happened in heaven above or in the earth beneath, and that the foreknown station of a reed by the river is fixed as the station of a king, and "the chaff from the hand of the winnower is steered as the stars in their courses."



    Predestination embraceth the great and the little, and reacheth unto all things; the question is, wherefore pray? Might it not as logically be asked, wherefore breathe, eat, move, or do anything? We have an answer which satisfies us, namely, that our prayers are in the predestination, and that God has as much ordained his people's prayers as anything else, and when we pray we are producing links in the chain of ordained facts. Destiny decrees that I should pray—I pray; destiny decrees that I shall be answered, and the answer comes to me.



    Moreover, in other matters we never regulate our actions by the unknown decrees of God; as for instance, a man never questions whether he shall eat or drink, because it may or may not be decreed that he shall eat or drink; a man never enquires whether he shall work or not on the ground that it is decreed how much he shall do or how little; as it is inconsistent with common sense to make the secret decrees of God a guide to us in our general conduct, so we feel it would be in reference to prayer, and therefore still we pray. But we have a better answer than all this. Our Lord Jesus Christ comes forward, and he says to us this morning, "My dear children, the decrees of God need not trouble you, there is nothing in them inconsistent with your prayers being heard. 'I say unto you, ask, and it shall be given you.' " Now, who is he that says this? Why it is he that has been with the Father from the beginning—"the same was in the beginning with God" and he knows what the purposes of the Father are and what the heart of God is, for he has told us in another place, "the Father himself loveth you."


    Now since he knows the decrees of the Father, and the heart of the Father, he can tell us with the absolute certainty of an eye-witness that there is nothing in the eternal purposes in conflict with this truth, that he that asketh receiveth, and he that seeketh findeth. He has read the decrees from the beginning to end: hath he not taken the book, and loosed the seven seals thereof, and declared the ordinances of heaven? He tells you there is nothing there inconsistent with your bended knee and streaming eye, and with the Father's opening the windows of heaven to shower upon you the blessings which you seek. Moreover, he is himself God: the purposes of heaven are his own purposes, and he who ordained the purpose here gives the assurance that there is nothing in it to prevent the efficacy of prayer. "I say unto you." O ye that believe in him, your doubts are scattered to the winds, ye know that he heareth your


    THAT IS MORE LIKE IT....!!!!
     
  8. Iconoclast

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  9. DHK

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    I don't need your help Icon. I gave you Scripture. It is apparent that you can't answer it.
     
  10. Iconoclast

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    DHK

    I offered those good links for others who might struggle with this issue.
    You have not asked for my help DHK....that is true.

    I might not be the best person to help you. I can be quite annoying and not let things go that others would. Instead of being tactful and putting out false pretenses under the guise of being so humble......I will respond as need be.

    What I notice however is ...you never accept help from anyone.

    Reformed has schooled you on this issue. his answerers solidly offered instruction....which you reject.

    O.R. has offered help...you refused

    AA has offered help....you refused

    The confessions of faith have offered
    you help....you refusedCon1 has offered you help...you refused

    Rippon has offered you help...you refused



    You offered those scriptures to another poster....but I know what you mean...ok I will take this as an invitation to respond:thumbsup:
     
  11. Yeshua1

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    Is there anything then outside the Sovereign Will of God to do?

    IF He determines to do something, will it matter if we pray on it or not, or if he has chosen to also not do something?

    YES it still does, as that is what he has commanded unto us to be involved with and in, as we always need to keep ourselves in fellowship with him, not in order to somehow change his mind, but to make sure that we are keeping the mind of christ...

    has not God already determined what will all happen from eternity past, as he does not need to get any new information from us, does He?
     
  12. Iconoclast

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    DHK
    Okay friend....lets see if I can answer....it will be tough but I will try:thumbsup:



    Unsaved Israelites sinners did that which sinners always do....sin.Sinners are in rebellion against God everyday.

    In vs 3 we see this-

    3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man;

    he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck;

    he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood;

    he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol.

    Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

    They were unsaved religious persons DHK. Unsaved people can be religious and try and justify their sin.

    Again...men have self will...they can choose. That does not mean the will is free. This is why you keep getting it wrong. You impose your philosophy on the text.

    God communicates to us with language that we can understand.God does not need so much "to Choose" as he acts in a perfect way at all times.
    His righteous judgment is consistent with His Holy Character.
    The natural man does that which is opposed to God everyday.

    I do not share you mistaken ideas here. God is supra temporal . But your post suggests a god who is like a man...thinking, changing, making choices after the events take place, going to plan B. No I do not believe there is ever a plan B.

    If you were more familiar with this teaching from the 1689 you would not repeat this error over and over.

    Chapter 6: Of the Fall of Man, Of Sin, And of the Punishment Thereof

    1. Although God created man upright and perfect, and gave him a righteous law, which had been unto life had he kept it, and threatened death upon the breach thereof, yet he did not long abide in this honour; Satan using the subtlety of the serpent to subdue Eve, then by her seducing Adam, who, without any compulsion, did willfully transgress the law of their creation, and the command given unto them, in eating the forbidden fruit, which God was pleased, according to his wise and holy counsel to permit, having purposed to order it to his own glory. ( Genesis 2:16, 17; Genesis 3:12,13; 2 Corinthians 11:3 )

    2. Our first parents, by this sin, fell from their original righteousness and communion with God, and we in them whereby death came upon all: all becoming dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the faculties and parts of soul and body. ( Romans 3:23; Romans 5:12, etc; Titus 1:15; Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-19 )

    3. They being the root, and by God's appointment, standing in the room and stead of all mankind, the guilt of the sin was imputed, and corrupted nature conveyed, to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation, being now conceived in sin, and by nature children of wrath, the servants of sin, the subjects of death, and all other miseries, spiritual, temporal, and eternal, unless the Lord Jesus set them free. ( Romans 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21, 22, 45, 49; Psalms 51:5; Job 14:4; Ephesians 2:3; Romans 6:20 Romans 5:12; Hebrews 2:14, 15; 1 Thessalonians 1:10 )

    4. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions. ( Romans 8:7; Colossians 1:21; James 1:14, 15; Matthew 15:19 )

    5. The corruption of nature, during this life, doth remain in those that are regenerated; and although it be through Christ pardoned and mortified, yet both itself, and the first motions thereof, are truly and properly sin. ( Romans 7:18,23; Ecclesiastes 7:20; 1 John 1:8; Romans 7:23-25; Galatians 5:17 )
     
  13. DHK

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    It is only within the Sovereignty of God that we do have choice.
    The Calvinist ties the hands of God and takes even this away.
    That goes against the nature of God. God does not predetermine all things. Omniscience and predetermination are two very different things. Just because God knows the outcome does not mean God causes the outcome.
    Man still has a choice in the matter. God simply knows what that choice will be. One cannot outsmart God. We are responsible for our actions. If absolutely everything were predetermined then there would be no responsibility. It would be God who would be the one held accountable for all of our evil. After all he is the One who predetermined them, isn't he? That is a false view attributing evil to God, and yet Calvin taught it.

    OTOH, God in his sovereignty granted free will to man to make his own choice. Adam could choose between two trees, or he could choose to eat or not to eat of the fruit of one tree. God never forced him. It was Adam's choice and he was held accountable for the choice that he made.

    James tells us "you receive not because you ask not."
    When we pray God will answer us, as we pray according to his will. Yes, prayer changes things.
    He is omniscient. Of course he knows all things. That doesn't mean all things are predetermined. There would be no sense in prayer if that were true.
    If you have an unsaved relative how do you pray. "I know he is not one of the elect and it is predetermined that he should go to hell, but save him anyway."
    You say you have the mind of Christ! How do you pray for your unsaved loved ones if this is true? You can't. It is all predetermined, so you say. There is therefore no sense to pray.

    God is omniscient; he knows the outcome. That doesn't mean he has caused it, or determined it. He doesn't force salvation on anyone.
    "Whosoever" is mentioned over 150 times in the Bible, and not once does it ever refer "to the elect." It means "whoever," "any," just like the word says. It cannot be re-defined. If anyone should come to Christ in faith he shall be saved. The promise has always stood that way, and always will.
     
  14. DHK

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    Certainly they did, but they didn't have to do that. God was bringing judgement upon them because of the choice that they made.{/b]
    What other choice did they have. God had already stated it.

    Isaiah 66:2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

    Where was the poor and contrite spirit that God was looking for?
    Where were those that trembled at His Word?
    God could not find them. The chose to do evil, not because they had to (as you say), but because they wanted to, in their rebellious attitude toward God. They chose disobedience over obedience.
    It is not always that way.
    In the time of the sending of 12 spies into Canaan to spy out the land. When the 12 returned, ten gave a bad report, and two gave a good report. Ten rebelled and caused the entire nation to rebel. The other two chose to submit to God. There is always a choice. Joshua and Caleb made the right choice without any influence from God. The other ten made a wrong decision without any influence from God.

    The same is true here. Without influence from God or anyone else the nation has gone astray.
    Joshua and Caleb chose to do good, as did Abraham and their patriarchs. So did Jeremiah, their contemporary who warned them about this. But they rebelled anyway. They did have a choice. All men do. They did not have a yoke upon them to do evil.
    His righteous judgement is described in Romans 1:20 in that he has left all men "without excuse." The nation of Israel had no excuse. They had heard the words of Jeremiah. They rebelled. And God would judge them accordingly and justly--according to the sin that they committed. That is what the text says.

    "I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because..."
    --He chose accordingly.
    The nation of Israel chose to rebel in spite of the warning given by Jeremiah.
    God chose to send judgment according to the actions of Israel.
    I never said that. I said God is outside of time. He is eternal. He changes not. You contradicted what I said trying to put words in my mouth that I never said. Do you purposely lie?
    I don't need to study it in any detail. I already have perused it and I know it is in error in many things. I therefore avoid it.
     
  15. Yeshua1

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    When the Bible states to us that God repented, seems to have had a change of mind, that is merely Him trying to state to us as we seem to see it happening, nit that he has ever actually decided to do something different than what he first purposed to do...

    That is why the truth of the sovereign God is so important here, as that enables us to boldly come unto Him, as we know that in all things he works for our good, and that we can seek Him to answer the prayers in accordance with what He knows is the right way to do that!

    And prayers by themselves have saved no sinner, its due to the Will of god that that person received Jesus to get saved, and prayer, the Bible, circumstances, friends etc are all agents he has chosen to use to that end...
     
  16. DHK

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    "God is not a man that he should lie; neither the son of man that he should repent. Hath he said and shall he not do it? Hath he spoken and shall he not make it good?" (Num.23:19).
    --I never said anything about God repenting.
    I spoke of God answering prayer.
    I spoke of God's justice.

    I spoke in context of Isaiah 66:4:

    Isaiah 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

    How God chooses judgment befitting of the crime committed, as is easily demonstrated in this verse.

    Prayer is the vehicle by which faith is expressed.

    Luk 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
    Luk 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
    Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
    Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
    Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

    The publican's prayer was accepted before God, and he was justified before God. Why?
    It was a prayer. Think about it.
     
  17. Rippon

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    If you have perused it means you have studied it in detail. You contradict yourself. Use your words more carefully.
     
  18. Protestant

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    A Tale of Two Faiths – Chapter 2

    Christian: Hey there, Preacher Man. I saw you praying in the Market Place and thought I would come by and say, ‘hello.’

    Preacher Man: And?

    Christian: ...And I have a few questions for you.

    Preacher Man: Alright, but make it quick. I have places to go and people to see.

    Christian: Of course……You affirm that saving faith is not God’s gift to sinners. Saving faith is inherent in all men. It is up to the individual to believe by good use of his free will.

    Preacher Man: That’s right. Some men choose to believe, while others do not. The choice is man’s to make. God does not coerce anyone.

    Christian: So, based on your interpretation Ephesians 2 should read:

    By grace are ye saved through [your] faith, and that [salvation by grace] not of yourselves, it [salvation by grace] is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast.

    Preacher Man: That is correct.

    Christian: But saving grace by its very nature must be the gift of God, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

    Preacher Man: I believe you are confusing the issue.

    Christian: On the contrary, logic is at play here. Grace, by its very nature, is the unmerited gift of God to the undeserving. All Christians whether high school dropouts or Baptist seminary professors understand that grace originates from God alone. Man has no grace to give. Agreed?

    Preacher Man: Make your point.

    Christian: Therefore, Paul must be referring to our faith as being the gift of God’s grace. It is this doctrinal truth which many newborn Christians do not consider. However, the Holy Spirit wills that all Christians embrace this truth as it glorifies our Lord who is the sole author and finisher of our faith.

    What concerns me, Preacher Man, is your insistence that your will is the origin of your saving faith. By so doing, you boast……the very thing Paul warns against.

    Furthermore, by this boasting you infer you are a god. For only a god can supernaturally produce that which has its origin from Deity.

    What say you to this, Preacher Man?

    Preacher Man: I say you have a devil and speak only lies. Good day, sir!
     
  19. DHK

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    I do choose my words carefully. I know what the word means. You ignore the possibility that words often have more than one meaning:

    Full Definition of PERUSE

    transitive verb
    1
    a : to examine or consider with attention and in detail : study
    b : to look over or through in a casual or cursory manner

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/peruse

    I used it correctly.
     
  20. The Archangel

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    Think about this statement for a minute...

    Can it ever be said that Israel did anything without the influence of God? Certainly they rebel against God, but to Israel was given the very oracles of God (see Romans 3). So, there was indeed the influence of Israel by God Himself. The giving of the Law, the revealing of Himself in miracles (the parting of the Red Sea, etc.) IS influencing Israel.

    But, as with all mankind, Israel didn't need a push to rebel. After all, the heart of man "desires only evil continually" (Genesis 6). And, this is precisely why, in Ezekiel 36, God tells the Prophet of the new heart that is needed. A new heart can do what the Law could never do--convert.

    What is more, even in the midst of appalling rebellion, God intervenes and keeps a remnant for Himself:
    [18] Yet I will leave seven thousand in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him.” (1 Kings 19:18 ESV)
    The Archangel
     
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