A Theatre of God's Glory--Calvinism and Creation

We lve in a most wonderful universe and Romans 1 teaches that we can learn about God from observing it. That's all, folks.

 

I do not know if Arminianism has an official paper or document explaining the glory of God manifested in His Creation. In any event we do not picture Almighty God as a Divine Autocrat wielding His power over and through His creatures to the point where they become robots. If this view is true then the Lord has made Himself hypocritical in that He suggests in Genesis that Adam and Eve had absolute freedom to either not eat of the fruit or to partake of it.

God in His sovereignty had delegated His authority in the Garden so that the first couple cared for the Garden of Eden.

We see in Genesis that the angel closest to the Godhead in Heaven was cast out of the abode of God above and down to the earth. It is obviously clear that the evil one was on the earth even before the first couple, namely Adam and Eve.

If Adam and Eve would not have partaken of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they would have had a paradise on the earth forever. Sin would have not been part of this utopia on earth.

Since Adam and Eve were not human automatons it is most clear that the God of Heaven and earth decretively instilled within humankind that which the Bible speaks, namely free will [Revelation 22:17f] to either obey God or disobey Him. From Genesis to Revelation this idea captures the spiritual mind of God's people.

Without the Fall there would be no Adamic nature in human beings, meaning sinners.

We find the evil one in the Garden of Eden and he and his imps remained during the time of Job even to the end of time. Some are free to roam the earth to deceive not only sinners but also, at times, even the people of God. Some of the fallen angels are in Gr.{tartarus} a special place [Jude vs. 6] reserved for those fallen angels until the final judgment of sinners called the Great White Throne Judgment. [Revelation 20:11] There is no possible redemption ordained by God for the devil and his evil angels.

Though there are several dispensations [Ephesians 3:2] in God's history of humankind, He has from all eternity known and planned for the redemption of all who believe in the Son. [John 3:16 & I John 5:11-12] Repeatedly, God has spoken of His 'foreknowledge' [Romans 8:29a & I Peter 1:2] in the election of His people who have trusted the saving benefits of His Son. [I John 4:9]

'The Theatre of God's Glory' is exhibited in the Book of Genesis by this all powerful and sovereign God who has decreed the free agency of His created beings from Genesis until the end of His eras of His proffered grace.

Dr. Berrian

 

Just like it doesn't make "Arminianism gives some/all [whatever] glory to man" true! If theology by analogy doesn't work, then neither do frequent assumptions such as "...plan for his creatures is often thwarted by their wayward will". God acts like He is frustrated with man, who is not doing His will. But perhaps he should be happy with them, because they are fulfilling the role He programmed them for: to condemn themselves and go to Hell. Obviously, there are two different "wills", and the debate is whether it is "eternal" (forgot te other words for it) and "permissive", or two other wills in which neother can be violated, but rather contradict one another (decretive and preceptive, and other names).

 

Thanks Me2,
I agree with your definition of a worker of iniquity. But I believe it goes farther than that. I believe the proper udnerstanding of it is one who delights to do evil.

Bro. Dallas

This may have been the wrong thread for this, but I made mention of Job having knowledge in at least a rudimentary sense of his redeemer [which can be none other than Christ]. Then Me2 again made reference to Job in responding to me, so I included the passage here to show why I believe the OT saints had a greater knowledge according to the promise than I think we sometimes attribute them.

 

Ray Berrian said:

And the fact is that Adam and Eve are the only human beings with true free will, and who can be said to be free moral agents. They were created with no fallen nature, no sin, and the absolute freedom to obey God or disobey Him, to honor Him or to dishonor Him, to believe Him, or to disbelieve Him, to remain loyal to Him, or to transfer their loyalty to another.

Unfortunately, they chose to disobey God, to disbelieve Him and to obey another fallen creature.

All their generations after them bore the image and likeness of Adam, fallen, in bondage to sin, with a will in opposition to his Maker.

Now, tell me, if God does not intervene, who do you think deserves to go to heaven ? If God had simply abandoned His creation to the consequences of their sins, is He going to be unjust ?

 

Do not expostulate without thinking things through. You are trying to say that the Lord gave the first couple a free agency, but then changed His mind and creates in them the bondage of the will. You are going to need Scripture to back the concept that God changed His mind after the Fall.

If your read Scripture carefully you will see that after the Fall the couple became like God, know both good and evil. {Genesis 3:22} And because of this new understanding God drove them from the Garden. Also, 4004 years B.C. God created human beings not after the likeness of Adam but rather God. {Genesis 5:1}

Also, in 60 A.D. we read that we are not to curse another human, because we are all created after the semblance of God. {James 3:9} This is what makes Total Depravity a misnomer. But, do not get me wrong, our nature is tainted because of Adam's grievous sin causing every sinner to have the Adamic nature/Original Sin.

God the Spirit has intervened as early as in Genesis 6:3 (2,948 B.C.) and He also has spoken as late as in Revelation 22:17a. The Godhead has sent the Son to die on the Cross for our sins. {I Corinthians 15:3 & I John 2:2}

None of us deserve to go the Heaven. The Cross and the atonement opens the way to celestial joy to those who believe. {John 3:16}

Your last sentence above is hypothetical. What if God made a plan for the redemption of the fallen angels? This too,is hypothetical.

 

Ray Berrian said:

Gosh ! Didn't know you were dumb, Ray. Or is that the way you really work, put words in somebody's mouth they did not say ?

They were created without sin, they corrupted themselves, they disregarded God's warning. Where did I say God changed His mind ?

 

Rays also said:

Hypothetical ? Or unanswerable given your position that man did not really totally fall ?

Do you close your eyes and go to sleep when afraid, Ray ?

 

Yes, I think I was unclear in my last post by not saying that you said that God gave Adam and Eve a free will, but then after the Fall you seem to be saying that God changed His mind and stripped all of the following sinners from having freedom of the will.

I am saying that the Lord God has always given angels and human beings their free will. We are not robots. All of these creatures have free agency.

 

Hypothetically speaking the true God would not have walked away from our lost state in Adam because of other Attributes of God spoken of as Mercy, Love, and Justice and perhaps others. God is not simply the lopsided sovereign God that may people portray Him as Being; meaning the pick and choose God.

As to sleeping . . . . these answers to Calvinism are so easy, that at times I dose while putting you on the right track. With all due respect . . .

 

That's not at all how Calvinists think it worked. God created Adam and Eve with free will. They disobeyed and suffered the consequences, spiritual death. We inherited that condition. In our current condition, we have free will in the sense that we are free to do whatever we want (barring God's intervention), but we WANT only that which a spiritually dead person WANTS -- NOTHING GOOD (by God's spiritual standards, not by man's tainted standards).

God didn't "change His mind and create us that way". We inherited this condition from Adam.

 

Yes.

 

Careful. It is harder than you think to "be God".

When it started - there was only God. God alone decided to create, AND to give out "free will".

Yet God still knows all things in the future even WITH Free will in place. So in the end - He is only limited in the way we are limited when playing by rules in a game that we make up. We do so to make the game fun and interesting. Continually breaking the rules of the game would tire anyone very quickly.

In Christ,

Bob

 

A Puritan Mindset,

Sorry, Revelation 22:17f says, 'Whosoever wills may come . . . ' Apparently the Lord set no restrictions on those who are allowed into His Presence if they trust and believe in the Son of God, our Savior.

My guess is that someone of a Puritan Mindset will disallow the full force of the words, 'Whosoever will may come and drink of the water of life freely.' Prove me wrong.

 

What are you talking about Ray??? Your own verse contradicts you. God did set restrictions on those who are allowed into his presence. The verse you cite in support of your position actually refutes it. Those who come and restricted to those who "will." Those who "will not" come have no salvation. That is the restriction that God put forth and you don't get to change that. Every Calvinists believes Rev 22:17 ... We all believe that whosoever will may come. What you still fail to deal with is hte biblical teaching that the will is affected by sin so that man "will not" come. You cannot simply omits the parts of the Bible that contradict your preferred belief. You have to include them and change your belief.

 

Pastor Larry,

'The whosoever will . . . ' factor in God's eternal plan is the human response to grace and is not speaking of God's decree to save some and damn the other souls. At the conclusion of the canon of Scripture, John the Apostle does not even hint of such an inexplicable and bizarre conceptualization. We gladly agree with you as to the minister of the Spirit [vs. 17a] and that of the church [vs. 17a] (Revelation 22:17)

We too, know the proclivity of the unregenerate toward sinning. But 'your omitting of the parts of the Bible that contradict your preferred belief' resolves, to not factor into Calvinism the fact that even the worst sinners are created after the image of God. [John 1:9] 'He lights every person who comes into the world.' & [James 3:9] 'All sinners are created after the similitude of God.' The first clause of this verse reminds us not to curse any human being. I ask you why we are not to curse another sinful, human being?

Calvinism can only flourish and remain viable if it over-emphasizes certain Scriptures while ignoring other passages of the Word of God. That's a fact! And the reason we know this is because your brethren seldom respond to all of our Scripture integrated into Christian theology that we offer. You simply state your religious mantra.

Calvinistic teaching portrays 'the hand of the Lord' as being partially paralyzed, unable to save all of His lost created human beings. Isaiah 50:2f portrays the Lord's undiminished ability. 'Is my hand shortened at all, that it cannot redeem?'

Also, we should herald with the Prophet Isaiah where he says, ' . . . the Lord's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither His ear heavy, that it cannot hear.' [59:1]

There are no restrictions against all sinners responding to the call of the Holy Spirit, not even their Adamic nature that has been tainted by Original Sin can disallow their response toward the Lord God. Total Depravity overstates the lost condition of humankind.

There is no Biblical advantage for God to damn some sinners while saving other fallen human beings. God is God. He surely does not magnify Himself by allegedly committing the atrocity of eternally damning most [Matthew 7:13-14] of His created human life through the centuries. Jesus is saying that 'few will find life,' while 'many will walk to destruction.' What would be His purpose?

We do know that the Lord God unabatedly tells us that He is most willing to save all lost ones. [John 3:16; I Timothy 2:6; I John 5:13; Revelation 3:20 & Revelation 22:17f]

Best regards . . .
Berrian, Th.D.

 

Glad to know you agree with us. You are not far from the kingdom.

No it's not.

I have yet to see one passage that Calvinists have refused to respond to. I have noticed that you have refused to respond to my request for a place where the Bible teaches your position that belief precedes election. For some reason, you are unwilling to answer that question. (I konw why you are unwilling.)

Actually, you have it backwards. You say that God is unable to save those who are unwilling to come. You are the one who says God is limited. We say that God can freely save all whom he decrees to save. He is no limited in the least. This is one of those areas where you keep repeating your mantra while obviously not thinking through your belief.

 

"I am of Paul; I am of Cephas; I am of Apollus; I am of Arminius; I am of Calvin..."

Are we not like the Church at Corinth? Carnal Christians-- babies who cannot handle the meat of the Word?

We ought not to be following the commandments of men, lest we worship in vain.

Why do we still argue about salvation? Salvation is of the Lord. All of our righteousness is as filthy rags.

We are saved by grace through faith, not of ourselves, it the gift of God. Not of works lest any man should boast. What part of "not of works" gives us difficulty?

Satan has us going in circles.

Let us repent and get back in the right ranks.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

Hold on to that thought.

Who said that God alone shows initiative or that God alone thinks or that God alone has a will or is capable of independant thought?

Ideally. But Love and Joy require intelligence and the fact of rebellion in heaven and in the Garden proves "initiative" beyond a shadow of a doubt.

So we live, and act, and think, and show initiative. God is not "the lone actor in creation".

We exist.

Be assured - they are in opposition.

When Calvinists speak of Creation or the act of Creation do they mean it as in "evolution is the fact of origins and God's statement on Creation is only true in a symbolic kind of way"?

Are we really talking about the same thing?

Again, just talking out loud.

I would agree that spiritual things are spiritually discerned if that is where you are going.

In Christ,

Bob