A universalist thread

I think that it is possible to surmise from an exegesis of general revelation (otherwise called observation of the natural world) that we are indeed "sinners," and that no human effort might be cause enough to remedy that sin (we all have fatal flaws). We might also surmise that there is a "higher power" in the cosmos (or apart from it) that could or might see our actions as un-pleasing. What we probably could never surmise is just how un-pleasing we are to that "higher power" nor what the remedy for that sin might be. In fact, even with the "revealed Scripture" in our hands, we debate this issue here on the board.

Throughout history, many peoples have surmised just such a case apart from a direct revelation from God. They, not having the benefit of a specific revelation from the Word of God, have taken their observations of the natural realm and crafted a whole host of religious expressions, all designed to somehow cure the sin issue or appease the "higher power" that might be dis-pleased with our actions. Each of these religions, including perversions of Christianity, feature one common element -- the works of human beings. This is the "universal" common denominator amongst human beings.

Without the specific revelation -- the Bible -- we cannot understand the lengths to which God -- a personal named God who has revealed Himself -- has gone to redeem a certainly lost humanity (and creation). So, Romans 1 is true -- we all have an innate knowledge of the fact that we are created beings and that we have strayed from our Creator. We know that we need help, and "universally" have sought to find that help. But it is only in the atonement and imputation of righteousness that is ours in Christ -- God's singular plan -- that we have any hope at all.

We are, on the basis of the specific revealed Scriptures, saved by only ONE means -- Christ. We must know Christ. We must be "saved" by Christ. And we know Christ by the Scriptures, whether preached, read, taught, or explained. There is no other way.

So, at the end of the day, humankind is "universally" damned by the sin that we all have, and only spared that damnation by the grace of the revealed God who comes to us, reveals His glory, to which we are graced to respond, and are born anew into new creations, the old has passed and the new come, imputed with the righteousness that is Jesus Christ, and our earned penalty is taken from us, "He who knew no sin, became sin on our behalf..." so that we might be declared the adopted sons of God.

Our task, given by this revealed personal God, Himself, is to carry this message to all the people of the world, so that they too can know and turn their hearts to the only one who can truly save.

 

That's interesting and I'm really glad they put the "especially of those who believe" or I might be freaking out about now. LOL

Is God still the God of everyone on this earth, and will not everyone who rejected him come to realize that? One day every knee will bow and every tongue confess. Unfortunately, that's too late for some.

Same thought...Jesus is still the Savior of everyone, but especially of those that believe. I'd say that's because we become heirs and get to be with Christ forever while the unbelievers don't. People can reject they have a physical heart, but they have one whether they deny it or not. If they toss it aside they still have a heart, but it doesn't function to provide them with life anymore.

Yeah, I have a weird way of putting things. I know.

 

thank you, tom. and I hasten to add that this is only as far as eternal salvation is concerned.

 

The meaning behind this might be that, because we who labor and suffer reproach and trust in the Living God, His promise of life and live this way, that in a more emanate manner (“especially” coming out of this position/exercising in a trusting and serving relationship) that those that believe in this way “are” (more assured) of being saved everlasting. “Especially” - It is more “profitable” in life to be exercised in this way. (1Tit 4:8).

 

The book of life is a scriptural concept. It is found in Scripture.
Scripture says that this book was written from the foundation of the world, and Scripture also says that the rest of mankind, in front of the Great White Throne, was judged according to their works and, as a final proof of their being unredeemed because someone else did their works for them and took the penalty of their sin for them, God further referred to the book of Life, and their names were not found therein and on that final basis they were sent to the lake of fire.

Moses knew of this book's existence, and so did Paul, and while man likes to say he believes the Bible he dares suggest that this book is full of erasures because Moses "hinted" that God can erase names from it by asking that God remove his for Israel's sake YET God is not RECORDED in the Bible as having done any erasures from the book.

Why ?

Because the book is God's mind. His memory where he has stored all the names of all His people, Jew and Gentile, whom He chose from the foundation of the world in Christ, and Jesus Himself suggested as much with his answer to those who dared remind Him that they did mighty things in His Name and in His Name cast out demons: I NEVER KNEW YOU.

How presumptous we are to suggest that the blood of Christ redeems only those who have faith in Him based on their response to the gospel and call it grace ?

Somebody said "mercy is sparing us from what we deserve, and grace is granting to us what we do not deserve". If I can respond with faith, then do I not deserve what that response is said to give ?

Where is grace : in granting to an absolutely helpless soul that which he can never hope to have without requiring response from him, or granting that which he can never hope to have because he is able to show faith in the grantor ?

yet so many on this board would limit God's grace and mercy by setting parameters for these where God set none, save the total, unconditional, absolute obedience of His Only Begotten Son.

I do not deny that there is such a salvation predicated on faith, but this is NOT the salvation Christ ALONE secured for His people whom He loved when they did not love Him, and whom He knew when they did not know Him. That is grace.

 

Ehh...I wasn't going to post this, cause I don't have the time to...defend myself in battle...but FWIW, MK:


If I get accused of being a “Universalist” it is usually by someone who doesn’t understand the difference between that and a belief in “Universal Atonement”; two theological terms that have very different meanings.

Other than that I am not overly dogmatic about what a person has to believe (theological/head knowledge) and don’t judge another’s salvation through comparing my personal insights (head knowledge). I believe God judges their heart (heart knowledge), and this is not my job. If the Gospel is simple enough for a child to understand, how much do they need to know to have a relationship with God? If their information comes from what is written in the stars how many facts must they know to have a relationship with God?

Jesus said: “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no man comes to the Father but by Me.” …and I believe this!
Exactly what kind of faith (heart knowledge) Jesus requires I don’t presume to have the exact answer or to be the one to set the salvational standard (head knowledge) for others. I humbly thank God for answering my questions about salvation and Who He Is, and don’t judge others by their knowledge or lack of it.

An example is when I speak to someone (often at college nowadays) who is proclaiming a Universalist theology and they are usually surprised at how well I can explain, what they will often begin by calling it “my truth” (The Gospel of Jesus Christ and the Cross), and how I can explain how it all works and how I can know that these (Biblical) Words are truly the Words of God. These same people often end up saying something like: “you are an evangelist so can explain these things, but this doesn’t mean I don’t have a relationship with God because I do; different people can know God in different ways.” This is humbling to me. I refuse to turn on them and accuse them of not having their relationship; I just plant the seeds, talk about the Good News, make some corrections to their theology from the scriptures which I support as being the Word of God, and pray God helps them understand what they need to know while knowing it is Him that judges the heart, again I do not feel it is my job in any way to judge their faith or relationship. I will simply try to talk about the importance of “the object of their faith”.

This may seem to lean into and/or might bring accusations of Universalism according to some, but for me I choose to be meek about this, humbly preach the truth and thank God that He answered my prayers about the depth in which I personally needed to know Him and that this allows me to speak like an evangelist or sound like a preacher to others. Makes my day when people so appreciate hearing my explanations.

Have fun.

 

I have actually found the opposite to be true. We prefer to figure out how to please or be pleasing to God/Higher Power on our own terms. This is born out in the multiplicity of false gospels in the world, and sometimes (sadly) in the church.

This is not actually covered by the DoG the way you ascribe. Those who hold to a Reformed Poseidon do not set aside the Scriptures that say that we must preach the gospel! God's election is indeed God's business, but we are not saved apart from the Scriptures. You have gathered a false concept of the DoG. Additionally, election is not "salvation." It is but one component part of salvation. There is also an effectual call, regeneration, justification, faith/repentance, adoption, sanctification, and glorification. Your error here is akin to pinoybaptist's where election is the sole means of salvation. That s not the Poseidon of Reformed persons.

Hebrews 9:27-28 (KJV) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

An easier to grasp translation:

Hebrews 9:27-28 (ESV) And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

"Hell" as we commonly describe and use it does not currently exist. Satan does not abide in a land of smoke and burning now (he roams the earth, seeking whomever he can devour) but one day -- that day of finality, God will cast him there forever. Hell does exist as the place of the "underworld" where those who die apart from Christ reside until the final judgment. They are separated from God during this time as illustrated by Jesus in the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man:

Luke 16:19-31 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

In Revelation 19:20, the decieving beast and his minions will be cast into the Lake of Fire that burns forever, never to exit:

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

In Revelation 20:10, God casts Satan himself into this Lake of Fire:

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Shortly after, God totally defeats death and sin, and they too are cast into this Lake of Fire:

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Finally, all those who did not believe Christ while alive will face the final judgment and be cast with the best, the false prophet, and the devil himself, into the Lake of Fire.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I believe that it is safe to say that in all of orthodox Christendom, that no one holds to salvation after death (post mortem evangelism or salvation) with the exception of Roman Catholics, who (mistakenly) believe that some form of salvific action can yet occur in "purgatory" largely by the actions of other saints who in some fashion, pray or pay the lost one's soul into God's eternal presence.

Mormon theology also holds to post-mortem evangelism, and they practice "praying for the dead" (hence the reason for their great efforts in genealogy) and "baptizing the dead" into their version of God's kingdom.

Neither the RC nor the Mormon doctrines match Scripture. Both are also late additions to "Christian" doctrine.

 

what IS a Reformed Poseidon ?:smilewinkgrin:

 

Ah man, now I'll actually have to think and look stuff up. LOL But first...about hell. It's the same issue I have with heaven...neither heaven nor hell are technically going to be anyone's permanent place.

Revelation tells us that the new Jerusalem descends and is on the earth, our planet earth, which will be restored and be the home of the redeemed. I'm not sure why pastors incessantly teach that we'll be in heaven, especially since it's made very clear in Scripture.

The same for hell. It will be cast into the lake of fire.

So after the tribulation ends, we have nobody dwelling in heaven or hell. We have the redeemed on earth and the unredeemed in the lake of fire.

Now to look stuff up. My statement of after death being too late was made from drawing conclusions from different texts. I will have to go look those up in order to present them as evidence so I will have to post again later, but in the meantime think about the different stories in the bible. Even before Christ's death there appeared to be paradise for the faithful, adjacent to hades for the unbelieving (asking for a drop of water) and that tells me there is immediate placement after death. That man recognized he was wrong and wanted to warn others still physically living that he cared about, but couldn't.
Christ's death took away the need for paradise. Before that, nobody could enter heaven itself because forgiveness was temporary and nothing unclean can enter heaven. Only his blood gave complete and total freedom from sin.
Yet hell remains.

Logical conclusion? It's there for a reason.

When Christ died, he overcame death and opened the gates of heaven for unbelievers.

When Satan is defeated, his death will open the gates to the lake of fire for unbelievers.

All good belongs to God.

All evil belongs to Satan.

The one and only evil God will not forgive is unbelief. Until unbelief is gone, he still sees sin because it is not covered. Sin is unclean. Nothing unclean can enter heaven.

I'll work on finding some specific verses pertaining to death negating the possibility of salvation for unbelievers.

 

Interesting post. Thanks for sharing.

...Bob

 

Originally Posted by Tom Butler
I appeal to I Cor 1:21, where Paul says God saves people through the foolishness of preaching.

In I Cor 1:18, Paul refers to the preaching of the cross as the power of God to salvation. I think that's the kind of preaching he means in 1:21--the preaching of the cross.

And Isaiah 53, which the Ethiopian eunuch was reading, is all about the cross. General revelation, not so much. One would think that even a cursory look at creation would suggest the existence of a Creator, but it takes specific preaching for one to have knowledge of the Lord Jesus and his death for sinners.

That said, you are right that we are saved by grace through faith. But it is by God's grace that we even hear the gospel, and it is an extension of God's grace to us to whom it has been granted to believe (Philp 1:29) and to whom repentance has been given. (II Tim 2:25)

 

That passage, in my opinion, was the type I was going to look for.
They were disobedient in life, further clarified when the scriptures say "In the days of Noah" and then the author gets more and more specific and says while the ark was being prepared, also going on to specify it's the same time when 8 souls were saved out of the water.

That's when they didn't obey, and that's when God was patient.

Christ proclaimed victory to ALL, the faithful and unfaithful. Why wouldn't he? What would you do if the entire spiritual realm was waiting on you to do what you said you would do, and their fates depended on it? If you fulfill your promise, half those people will be taken from paradise and allowed the enter the presence of their Father.
If you are stopped from fulfilling your promise, and there is a very powerful person that many believe can stop you, they will also be waiting impatiently for the outcome.

So he declared His first victory, the ones those who believed before the permanent sacrifice, had faith in. He declared it to both those who believed and those who did not. The spiritual world must have been waiting for that battle a long time.

Those of us after the sacrifice know there is one more battle to be won and we have faith that it will be won by our Savior and that he will forever claim those of us who he purchased with his perfection, blood, death, and resurrection.

So I'm gonna use the passage you listed as my support for there being no chance after death.

There are people on here much more learned than I am. I have only read your comments to me on this thread so as not to get outside ideas.

Again, what I am saying is only me, and I recognize and want to state clearly that I may be presenting this in a way that isn't entirely fair to the position or clearly in line with the teachings of Baptist Christians on this subject. I entered into the discussion because it interests me. I commented because those are my thoughts.

I do look forward to studying this more and hearing from others on this board who can represent the topic with more knowledge and understanding than myself.

Now I'm gonna go read what everyone else said. LOL Menagerie Keeper, I will be going to this site: http://www.ewordtoday.com/comments/
There I will read commentaries on the verses you gave and see what these people have to say on this topic along with listening to what people here have to say.

I'd love to hear your opinion on what the final judgment is for.

I'd also like to know what you make of Jesus responding to "how can I be saved?" with "believe in the Lord Jesus Christ."

If everyone is saved despite, why is belief and repentance so emphasized? Of course those who believe will want to do the right thing, but why the need for urgency in declaring the good news to others if their souls are in no danger? We're already told that the world will continue to go downhill in violence and chaos until the return, so it isn't like it's going to benefit the earth and make it a better place if a person here and a person there start living right. If anything they will only have it tougher the closer we get to the final battle.

So I don't get how everything adds up here when you look at the big picture presented in the gospel unless you subtract some stuff from the scripture, unless you have an alternative interpretation that I've not heard of concerning grace, the job of faith, why Jesus said to believe to be saved, etc.. From knowing you on this board I know you're not one to purposely do that, so I do look forward to hearing more from you about why you believe like you do.

Although you may have already said it. I'll go back and read now, but if you didn't already respond to anyone with answers to the queries I just posed, I do hope you'll explain. I really like to hear why others think what they do.

 

I am sorry, but I do not know anything about this group other than what is included in the link. But I thought the link might fit under the umbrella of this universalist thread.

Primitive Baptist Universalists -- known as NO HELLERS

...Bob

 

Did I miss it or did no one quote the universalsts' proof texts?

Here's two:

In this one Christ is declared the savior of all men and to show that "all" means "all" there is a scriptural addendum "specially of those who believe".

Primitive Baptists even the non "no-hellers" probably wouldn't have a problem with this passage.

1 Timothy 4

8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.
9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
11 These things command and teach.​

The rebuttal is probably in the word "especially" (malista).​

Here is another tough one:​

This one appears to declare that Christ "bought" even false prophets and false teachers:​

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.​

Rebuttal?​

How about:
Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.​

HankD​