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Discussion in 'Music Ministry' started by Alive in Christ, Jan 25, 2009.
Sorry, but yes, that is what he said. :wavey:
Sorry, DHK. I tried.:BangHead:
Aaron is right.
If you can find where I said this then quote me. Otherwise leave off the false accusations, or just learn how to read. I never said this.
Annsi, thanks for the video! My daughters did something very similar for the Christmas play with their school group before.
It's funny how they call it different things. I believe they worded it as "expressive worship."
It's a beautiful thing to watch, and a wonderful way to be involved in helping others focus on worship!
Had a young lady in our church do a ballet to "You Are My Hiding Place" sung by Selah. It was really worshipful. One of the highlights of today's worship service.
I'm not talking about anything in that thread. I have neen you in other threads...in the past...criticize "Church of Christers" for their New Testament only stance.
Now, you take the very stance that you criticised them for taking.
Sorry you don't understand the post I directed you to which clearly clarifies my position. Your problem is that when I give you a clear answer you won't accept it no matter what I say. What more can I do?
In my signature I state, “Worship is not religious entertainment”. As an Orthodox Christian who was a former Protestant, I stand by that statement. We read of dancing and playing instruments in the OT, but I don’t read that these events were taking place in the Temple during worship.
As a former Independent Fundamental Baptist, my home Church took a stand against this, but today the preacher allows his girls to perform bluegrass and gospel music during Church services. My dad is a deacon and he’s had enough.
As an Orthodox Christian I will never have to worry about this at my Church. Our Bishop would never allow it…ever. We follow the same Liturgy and liturgical pattern of worship since the NT era, which is modeled after the OT Temple worship.
We’re not against a good time and praising God by dance and music, we just don’t allow it in our liturgical services. If we have programs as such noted above it’s done apart from our liturgical services and not in our cathedral, but in our fellowship hall. We have Christmas plays and Pascha plays, we have vacation bible school productions, which include dance and signing.
So, is a "worship service" then defined by the location in which it takes place?
This fits an OT model more than a NT one.
No, it is about purpose. That is why I keep going back to the NT. It is not the building. It is the purpose of the service. Have a time and purpose for a talent night. Then it would be okay. The purpose of the morning service is not for entertainment, as Agnus put it. Dancing is a form of entertainment, and that cannot be denied. She was taught that when she IFB, and she is being taught that now as Orthodox. I knew that when I was RCC, and we would never do that in our churches now that I am associated with. Dancing, no matter which way you look at it, is entertainment.
Everything that is done in the church should prepare the hearts of congregation for the preaching of the Word of God. Dancing and "rowdy" music (often CCM) does not do that. The the climax of the sermon ought to be an invitation--not always by asking people by coming forward, but at least in the message. We don't go to church to jump up and down and be happy. If you look in Acts 2:42, the first and most important thing on the list was doctrine or teaching. They went to be taught. The central part of a service ought to be the preaching of the Word of God.
On a side note I am a...he
But anyway, I will say that this type of 'entertainment' is starting to creep into the RCC today and is one among many other factors that eventually steered me towards Orthodoxy. The RCC has come a long way since Vatican II and our Church is starting to experience a steady flow of Catholics into the Orthodox Church.
I have visited Mass at some RCC's that were starting to incorporate the 'Contemporary' service into there program, complete with a live band ensemble.
I am told that recently the mainline Protestants have been sharing evangelical ideas with the Catholics and vice versa.
The rest of your post I agree with...
Blessings to you
I agree -- worship is not religious entertainment. And way too many churches today are bent on entertainment. I think most, if not all, of us would agree with that. Even in the most conservative of churches, many pastors feel like they needs start the sermon with a joke or two (drives me nuts).
That being said, the style of music is another issue. Many times, it's simply preferences. I may have my preferences, but they are just that -- preferences (though I agree, I would hate to hear bluegrass during a church service - actually anywhere, but that's another story).
Regarding sacred dance, I'm Presby so we typically don't have those things since we follow more of regulative principle of wordship. However, I have seen this in person before & it was similar to the video - more of a visual expression of the song being sung. It was done with style & grace and was very modest -- more like ballet than anything else. It did not detract from the message of the song; in fact (to me anyway), it added to it. It definitely wasn't "entertainment."
BTW, I have a friend who attends a Maronite Catholic Church. Your church sounds very similar -- except for the fact that they still speak Aramaic there.
Unfortunetly, God has had no part in yours and the RCC's dead liturgies since about, oh, 2000 years ago.
You guys need to worship as God desires, not a dead liturgy that appeals to the flesh.
Except for those times when it is used for worship of God. Then it is not in the least "entertainment", but rather "worship".
And many times some beautiful, heart felt, dancing unto the Lord is a wonderful and beautiful way to prepare our hearts for worship and the hearing of His taught and preached word.
As a great man once said..."Well, there you go again!"
Again, you place yourself in the place of being able to discern the thoughts and intents of other peoples hearts.
Why do you keep doing that?
Thats one part of a christian gathering. There are other parts.
You mean like the day of Pentecost?
In truth, part of every meeting should be a joyous celebration.
Who here has ever spoken against doctrine or preaching?
Again, nobody has ever said one negative thing about the preaching of Gods word. You keep throwing out that red herring.
A misguided soul may call entertainment worship, but that doesn't change the nature of the beast. You, for example, may sincerely stand on your head and recite the Lord's prayer and believe with all sincerity that you are worshiping the Lord--and maybe in your mind you are. But when everyone that walks by you laughs at you, it is entertainment. Face the facts.
When all look at people dancing they are entertained, no matter what the girls are doing from their heart. Our churches are full of entertainment. Why do you think people clap or give applause so much during the Gaither's Gospel Hour? They are being entertained. If every person on that TV set were kneeling in earnest prayer, praying for the revival of this nation, weeping because of sin; if they took to heart:
2 Chronicles 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
Then there would be no applause, no cheers, no clapping. Then there would be true worship.
That is only your opinion. Dancing is entertainment. Entertainment does not prepare one for worship or for the hearing of God's Word.
Again, you place yourself in the place of being able to discern the thoughts and intents of other peoples hearts.
Why do you keep doing that? [/quote]
1 Corinthians 2:15-16 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
--We are commanded to have the mind of Christ. To do that one must study God's Word. That enables him to judge. Both unbelievers and believers are known by their fruit. When the fruit of the believer is the same as the unbeliever, and one cannot tell the difference between the two, then something is terribly wrong.
James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
--These ought to be terrifying words to those who use the same music as the world uses, and then simply put Christian words to it.
I look at the degeneration of our society.
C.H. Spurgeon would not have any instrument in his church (and he preached to 20,000 regularly) for he feared that a piano or organ would take the focus of his congregation off of Christ. Think of that. An instrument like a piano would take the focus of the people away from Christ.
Here is a quote:
Spurgeon makes his point well.
Then instruments became popular. Society adapted. Charles Wesley wrote many hymns. But his brother, John Wesley, the founder of Methodism, had this to say:
"I have no objection to instruments of music in our worship, provided they are neither seen nor heard."
Many of the hymns that Charles Wesley wrote we still sing today. Likewise, Fanny Crosby. These old time hymns have become our great hymns of the faith.
For the most part CCM is shallow theologically, the music is worldly, even imitating the very genres of the world. Some of the music written could be praising Allah or a Hindu deity and no one would know the difference, it is that shallow. Much of the music of this world is used for plain entertainment. We have a community church about a mile up the road. They have a "Christian Rock" band, with a "mosh pit" just in front of the "altar."
It is entertainment, entertainment of the most ungodly kind. There is no way that one can call that worship.
First instruments; then a change in music; then more change in music; and now dance. It doesn't stop.
Jesus said: When I come shall I find faith on the earth. (Luke 18:8)
In the Greek it says "When the son of man cometh shall he find the faith on the earth." "The faith" is the same expression use in Jude 3, "contending for the faith." It seems to indicate that when Christ comes he will not recognize "the faith" that is, "the faith" of Christianity. It will be so disguised and changed by the world that it will no longer be recognizable as Christianity. That is what is happening now.
Compared to the preaching of God's Word, and the lifting up of Christ, and bringing others to him, the other parts are fairly irrelevant aren't they?
I didn't read about it at the day of Pentecost either. If you can quote it for me, I'd be happy to read it.
Show me in the Bible where a NT worship service is a joyous celebration.
Show me in the Bible where worship in and of itself is primarily joyous.
Show me one place in the Bible where Jesus laughed.
The preaching and teaching of God's Word, along with the worship of the Lord of Lord's and King of King's is no laughing matter.
Where is the emphasis?
On the preaching or the entertaiment? Why are the people coming to the church: for the entertainment or for the preaching?
It is not a red herring. If you did away with all of the instruments, the music, the specials, the dancing, the entertainment of any kind, and had only the preaching of the Word of God, would all of the same people still come?
If your service was patterned after Paul's service in Acts 20:7-11, would all the same people still come?
I thoroughly enjoyed watching your daughters and their friends worshiping God with music and dance. This type of involvement by our young people will help keep them close to the Lord during this important and developmental time of their lives.
I am disappointed that your thread was hijacked many times and even with the help of at least one moderator.
Thanks John. I appreciate it.
It doesn't bother me what others say. I know my girls. I know their hearts for the Lord. I know their love of worship of their heavenly Father. I just wanted to share one thing that they've done and hope it blesses some.
Ann, you are one classy lady...
Do you honestly believe that Jesus was solemn all the time? You've been watching too much "Jesus of Nazareth."
I agree that in too many churches worship has become about the entertainment. But to paint them all that way because they worship differently than you is not correct.
You have....got...to...be...kidding. Pleeeeeease tell me you are joking.
DHK, brother....are you alright? I mean, you seem to be sort of "losing it", as they say. I cant even respond to those statemente, they are so far "out there".
Its as if you are entering your own private realm of reality.
You are actually asking for scriptural proof that we should have joy in worshipping God...when JOY is one of the fruits of the Spirit...and for scriptural proof that Jesus Christ laughed in His lifetime.