A Whale of a Translation

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Dr. Bob, Oct 8, 2003.

  1. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    On another thread there is a discussion about Jonah and the whale. Implication is (and I made it, so I should know) that the whole controversy is because of a translation issue.

    OT story of Jonah does NOT use the word "whale". It translated the Hebrew "dag" as a fish, the proper meaning.

    NT account of Jesus mentioning Jonah translates the simple Greek word for fish "ketos" as WHALE.

    Only in the AV1611 and its various revisions.

    What's up with that? Thanks.
     
  2. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    2,364
    Likes Received:
    0
    Look up "fish" in a good English dictionary. A whale is a fish.

    Lacy
     
  3. Scott J

    Scott J
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2001
    Messages:
    8,462
    Likes Received:
    0
    My 3rd grader knows that a whale is not a fish. I am quite certain that God knows that a whale is not a fish. And, it is likely that the Greeks, if not the Hebrews also, knew the distinction between air breathing sea animals and fish.
     
  4. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    2,364
    Likes Received:
    0
    LOOK UP "FISH" IN A GOOD ENGLISH DICTIONARY! A WHALE IS A FISH!

    Lacy [​IMG]
     
  5. RaptureReady

    RaptureReady
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2002
    Messages:
    1,492
    Likes Received:
    0
    As I posted in the mentioned forum, "In Genesis 1:21, God created "great whales." If the Bible says great whale or great fish, we should believe the Bible and not doubt it. If I were to see a whale for the first time, I would probably say, wow, look at that big fish. If it looks like a fish, then it is a fish."
     
  6. TheOliveBranch

    TheOliveBranch
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2002
    Messages:
    1,597
    Likes Received:
    0
    Do you think God created the whale on the sixth day then? I don't believe God classified differences in fish and animals because of their chracteristics of classsifying them as mammal or fish. He made the living things of the sea on one day and the living things on land the next. I think a whale, in this sense would be a fish.
     
  7. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    2,364
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am amazed at how quickly some will run to a Greek dictionary to defend anything that disagrees with the KJB. But they cannot simply look at an English dictionary to find out what an English word means. Deny the historic use of the word "fish", deny hundreds of years of literature, but don't confuse your limited knowlege of the English language with "mistakes" in the Bible.

    My eighth graders "know" what the word "gay" means. (A gay person is a sodomite right?)

    So the KJV translators got it wrong in

    Jas 2:3 -
    And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say
    unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand
    thou there, or sit here under my footstool:

    See there! it's only wrong according to the KJV to "have respect" to cross-dressers! More proof that the KJV is not perfect!

    This is the dumbest argument yet.

    Lacy
     
  8. Abiyah

    Abiyah
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/abiyah.gif>

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2002
    Messages:
    5,194
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, Lacy, since I have thrown out all dictionaries
    other than the few best I had, I looked up whale in
    the English dictionaries that are left.

    One Oxford says this: "large marine mammal
    having a streamlined body and horizontal tail,
    and breathing through a blow-hole on the head."
    And it goes on, never mentioning fish. My other
    Oxford, which varies in certain ways, says the
    same thing.

    So I got my Ultimate Visual Dictionary of 2001.
    The only mention of "fish" is when it says that it
    has a "fish-like shape." Not even my Roget's
    thesaurus says, anywhere, that another word for
    whale is fish.

    I don't know what dictionary you are using, or if
    you are pulling our collective leg, but if you are
    serious, any dictionary that calls a whale a "fish"
    is, well, very interesting. Before I was very
    dictionary quality-aware, I once bought a
    student's dictionary for my daughter when she
    was in 4th grade. After I got it home, I looked
    in it and found, to my surprise and dismay, that
    it was not alphabetized!! I also once had a
    dictionary which said that "feb-u-ary" was an
    acceptable pronunciatin of February. I have also
    had dictionaries which did not even have some
    very ordinary words in them - they just weren't
    there! :)

    I, like Dr. Bob, was also on the other threads
    where the Jonah incident was mentioned. I
    contended that a fish is a fish and a whale is a
    whale; to claim that this fish was anything more
    distinct than a mere fish is to add to the Word.
    I don't want to go there.
     
  9. Scott J

    Scott J
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2001
    Messages:
    8,462
    Likes Received:
    0
    You missed the qualifier Abiyah.

    The only good dictionary is the one that allows KJVO's to preserve their predetermined conclusions. Yours are wrong. As are my Webster's at home- one of which is about 70 years old.
     
  10. mesly

    mesly
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2002
    Messages:
    283
    Likes Received:
    0
    According to Webster's 1828 dictionary (which is what KJVO's tend to prefer):

    So, it would seem that the word "fish" could be used generically to mean any creature in the sea, including a whale. But, the specific definition of a "fish" could not apply to a whale.

    Isn't english fun! :rolleyes:
     
  11. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    2,364
    Likes Received:
    0
    Look up "FISH" in a good English dictionary!

    Noah Webster 1828

    FISH, n. [L. piscis.]

    1. An animal that lives in water. Fish is a general name for a class of animals subsisting in water, which were distributed by
    Linne into six orders. They breathe by means of gills, swim by the aid of fins, and are oviparous. Some of them have the
    skeleton bony, and others cartilaginous. Most of the former have the opening of the gills closed by a peculiar covering, called
    the gill-lid; many of the latter have no gill-lid, and are hence said to breathe through apertures. Cetaceous animals, as the whale
    and dolphin, are, in popular language, called fishes, and have been so classed by some naturalists;
    but they breathe by lungs,
    and are viviparous, like quadrupeds. The term fish has been also extended to other aquatic animals, such as shell-fish, lobsters,
    &c. We use fish, in the singular, for fishes in general or the whole race.

    Mirriam Webster 2000

    gay \"ga\ adj
    1 : merry 2 : bright, lively 3 : brilliant in color 4 : given to social pleasures; also : licentious 5 : homosexual; also : of, relating to, or used by homosexuals


    (c)2000 Zane Publishing, Inc. and Merriam-Webster, Incorporated. All rights reserved.

    Lacy
     
  12. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    Having just preached through Jonah, I know that commentators say that the word dag is broad enough to include whale. This whole issue is "much ado about nothing." There are real issues in the KJV that mislead people or cause confusion. This is not one of them.
     
  13. RaptureReady

    RaptureReady
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2002
    Messages:
    1,492
    Likes Received:
    0
    The only misleading and confusion that is being done is the modernist. When you doubt God's word, you become confused and mislead others.
     
  14. Scott J

    Scott J
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2001
    Messages:
    8,462
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree completely. At best, KJVOnlyism is still less than 100 years old. It rests on the modernistic premise that in order for something to be true it must conform to their ability to measure and comprehend it as well as their presuppositions about what a 'good' answer is.
    Once again, agreement. KJVO's doubt God's Word as preserved in faithful, accurate versions other than the KJV. There is no doubt that they are very confused and are misleading the naive and uninformed.
     
  15. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    All the confusion I have experienced is from those who have been taught that only the KJV is the word of God. They are confused because this is never taught from Scripture, but rather from man's own words. False teaching usually brings confusion and that is what is has done in this instance. It is truly sad to see believers who are all tied up because someone has told them they only have God's word if they use the KJV. These unwarranted attacks on and denials of God's word in other versions is shameful and destructive to Christians.
     
  16. Anti-Alexandrian

    Anti-Alexandrian
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2002
    Messages:
    764
    Likes Received:
    0
    If Jesus said it was a Whale,then it was a Whale.


    I mean really,putting what a dictionary or some lexicon over God's word,what a shame!!! liberal GMO at it's worse.


    LIE!! There has always been a group of Bible(KJB)believers that held to the FACT that Bibles from Syrian/Byzantine manuscripts are the word of God,and that the "bibles"(200 +)from corrupted Alexandrian manuscripts are hopelesly corrupt.


    Bible Believers KNOW that the "faithful, accurate versions[ad nauseam]other than the KJV" that come from Jesuit-Egyptian dark-age manuscripts are NOT the word of God;most liberal GMOs bury their heads in the sand when confronted with this;in short,1st Cor 14:38.


    BOO!!!!!!!! Why is it you try and blast people to intimidate them?? Save that garbage for your congregation;you might can bully them around,I reject you and what you say.Keep in mind this portion of Scripture(KJB):Jeremiah 23:1-2
     
  17. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    2,364
    Likes Received:
    0
    A whale is a fish!

    Lacy
     
  18. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't blast people and try to intimidate them. I speak the truth in a manner consistent with a love for God's word. I have no garbage and I don't bully people around. You can reject me and what I say. That won't hurt me. But you have rejected the truth of God's word and that will hurt you.

    You cannot deal lightly with God's word as you have and not reap the rewards of it. God will not smile on those who treat his word in the manner in which you do. I will not be a party to it, nor will I stand by and let such treatment flow unrestricted to God's people who may not know better. You have been taught the error of your ways. You continue in them and continue to divide people over your unbiblical position. That is a rejection of Scripture and God's truth.

    I keep that passage in mind. But that has nothing to do with KJVOnlyism. I protect my flock from the likes of you. In fact, last week I spent some time exposing the false teaching known as KJVOnlyism. I had them open their Bibles and refuted it from the pages of God's word. It was an easy task as anyone knows who has tried.

    The unfortunate thing for you and your ilk is that you trumpet a love for God's word but never bother to teach it to people on this issue. You have not one word from God to support you. Yet you go on acting like God is on your side. If he was, he would has said so. Yet every word that we have from God on this topic unequivocally supports our side. We have shown that time and again, using God's word. You have yet to use the word of God rightly to support your position. Your attempt above was yet another abuse of Scripture, trying to tie the words of Jeremiah to the KJVOnlyism that is infecting Christianity and killing the spiritual life of people. It is a true shame that you refuse to get in the word of God and study it rather than studying the teachings of false teachers.
     
  19. NeilUnreal

    NeilUnreal
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2001
    Messages:
    320
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree with Lacy, the concept of fish is clearly being used in a colloquial sense, not in a scientific sense. Translating it as "fish" in one context and "whale" in another is inconsistent translation, but not incorrect. I would think a simple footnote on each passage informing the reader of the meaning and scope of the original words would be sufficient.

    -Neil
     
  20. Anti-Alexandrian

    Anti-Alexandrian
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2002
    Messages:
    764
    Likes Received:
    0
    BOOOOOO!!!!!!

    I did not aim it at your man made COP OUT called KJBonlyism;I aimed it at YOU.

    If they wanted the truth,they would find it;no matter how much poision you inject.



    I have Acts 13.The Bible(KJB) says nothing about Alexandria being assoiciated with the word of God;It says that the word of god comes from Antioch,Syria;the KJB comes from those manuscripts.End of discussion;the Bible believers(KJB)win,you never was even in the race;so you LOOSE!!


    BOOOO!!!!!!!!!!! You just dont know when to quit do you?? I told you,save it for those who are intimidated by you!! The Bible beleivers WIN!!!! as per Acts 13...
     

Share This Page

Loading...