About Hebrews' warning: Do not draw back to perdition

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Browner, Mar 25, 2016.

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  1. Browner

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    The distinguished author of Hebrews gives 5 big-time warnings to born-again brethren (and back in those days, many/most of them
    were also baptized with the Holy Spirit).
    One of the 5 warnings is this intreging passage …

    Hebrews 10 (NKJV):
    19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus,
    22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
    23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.
    26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
    27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
    28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
    29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
    30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay”, says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”
    31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
    34 … knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven.
    35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward.
    36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:
    37 “For yet a little while, and He who is coming will come and will not tarry.
    38 Now the justshall live by faith; but if anyone draws back,
    My soul has no pleasure in him.”

    39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition,
    but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.


    First, let us consider the last part of “the promise” (v.36) to the brethren, which is … If anyone “draws back”, God has no pleasure in him (v.38). Then in v.39, the writer talks about those who draw back to perdition (hell).
    Therefore, we should consider what it means to draw back.

    The writer tells us the opposite of falling back is:
    • to draw near with a true heart (v.22)
    • to hold fast your confession (of faith) without wavering (v.23)
    • to not sin willfully (v.26)
    • to not cast away your confidence (v.35)
    • to endure (v.36)
    • to do the will of God (v.36)
    • to live by faith (v.38)

    If you draw back from something, you first must have that something!
    In this case, if you have something that keeps you out of hell, and you choose to draw back from it, then you’re on your way to hell again!

    And BTW, the writer really has NO idea who might draw back (fall away)! He is simply following the Pauline method of encouraging, exhorting, etc. He is saying that some brethren (somewhere) draw back (fall away), but not these wonderful brethren to whom he is writing. Nonsense! As with Paul, the method is to give warnings which are tactfully veiled, and it is up to the Holy Spirit to reveal spiritual Truth to those who are open.

    “God has promised to reward us. But we must persevere, and we
    must continue to do the will of God with perseverance until the end;
    otherwise we shall lose our reward. We shall lose what He has
    promised … Therefore, let us not shrink back. Because if we do,
    we will not only lose our reward (v.36); we will also be destroyed
    (see Mark 8:35, Mark 13:13, Luke 21:19).”
    (The Applied NT Commentary, Dr. Thomas Holt, Spirit-filled missionary)
     
    #1 Browner, Mar 25, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2016
  2. Browner

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    Is this a problem that we can, or is this a blessing that we cannot?
    Are we wonderful believers able to fall back to perdition, or not?
    If it is NOT, then why the warning about it?
     
  3. ReformedBaptist

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    To answer your second posts questions, no we who are truly born of God, regenerate by the Holy Spirit, cannot "undo" what God Himself has created, any more than you can undo the creation of the sun, moon, or stars.

    Since the audience of this letter is primarily Jews, it makes perfect sense that God speaks to His people in this fashion. All the while in this letter the author has been exhorting and teaching that Jesus has come and brought in the new covenant, and how the new is better. Jesus is better than Moses, et. Now we are told that if, after we have received the knowledge of the truth, but go on sinning afterwards, there is no other sacrifice for sins. It is in Jesus and Him alone is the atonement. The law of Moses is of no help and the old covenant sacrifices can never take away sins.

    It seems perfectly good to me that the Holy Spirit here encourages the Jewish believer to continue in the things that he has received.
     
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  4. ReformedBaptist

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  5. SovereignGrace

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    "If you could lose your salvation, you would." John MacArthur
     
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  6. Browner

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    You obviously haven't read his most excellent book,
    "The Gospel According to Jesus".
    The spiritual revelation (which he obviously had at THAT time)
    was ceremoniously UNDONE by his church and/or denomination,
    which told him to TETRACT all of that glorious TRUTH
    which he had just written!

    If my memory serves me right ...
    since about that time, he has slipped down into a hapless oblivion.
    That's what happens when one chooses to go with
    "the doctrines of men" instead of the clear teachings of Scripture!
    Enjoy your research on this!
     
  7. dad1

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    If all we had was that passage one might understand why some would toss eternal salvation out the window, and cling to some silly notion that a work of ours, like 'not drawing back' keeps us saved.

    Since we know already that God's gifts are without repentance and that eternal life is His gift, it should be understood that who or whatever is drawing back did not lose eternal life.
     
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  8. Browner

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    Dear Daddy ... yes cling to it, silly or not.

    The NT does NOT regard the following as "work",
    good works, good deeds, or any such thing ...
    but as the believer's natural response to saving faith:
    continuing belief-faith, practicing righteousness,
    obedience to Jesus' commandments, etc.

    But alas, the NT teaches they are necessary for
    receiving eternal life.

    Would you care to see any of the many NT verses
    which teach the bolded above?
    Just name your poison and I will gladly deliver it.
     
  9. dad1

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    No thanks. Jesus offered eternal life, not semi eternal life that lasted 4 years and 2 months, and depended on our works. We no more keep ourselves saved than we save ourselves in the first place.
    Says you. However, that doesn't mean a thing. In one instance Jesus pointed out that believing was the work of God we needed to do.
    So Peter who denied Christ is in hell? God forgot your little rules before saving Paul? The folks Paul mentioned that had to have their body be given to Satan to die, so that their soul would live were the epitome of obedience? When Jesus said no man would be abole to pluck us from the Father's hand, He really meant except the man who somehow was not as righteous as you like? Thomas showed what 'faith belief' was all about? Don't put the cart before the horse, any righteousness we practice is after the fact of salvation which is the gift of God.
    Been there done that, traded the rag tee shirt for a glorious forgiven tee shirt from Jesus.
    As clever as you may think you are, the delusional interpreting of some scriptures and ignoring others on God's gift and plan of salvation is straining at nats and swallowing camels.
     
  10. dad1

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    That is an excellent quote. However I have heard a lot of his stuff (I like a lot of the prophesy stuff) and noticed that his teaching seems to be that those who really mess up simply were never saved to begin with, rather than lose salvation. That is just another way to deny that we actually really get saved when we truly ask, and will never lose it.
     
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  11. dad1

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    No. Never ever. Whatever the warning was about must be in that context. By the way, does perdition always mean eternal damnation?
     
  12. Browner

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    Peter REPENTED ... and was FORGIVEN!

    (Provocative comments removed)
     
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  13. revmwc

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    And yet we see 1 Corinthians 3:
    11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
    12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
    13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
    14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

    Believers receive two types of rewards. Those for works of intrinsic value and those accomplished while drawn back into sin. Many will be drawn back into sin and receive wood, hay and straw, yet if their reward is consumed in the fire they will be saved yet so as through the fire.
     
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  14. Browner

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    Yes, this is an interesting passage.
    But, perhaps Paul has given himself away by using the word "man".
    Obviously, he is not referring to all men.
    You say he refers to all believers.
    Maybe he is referring to those men who were elected
    before the foundation of the world (i.e. God's elect).
    Isn't it pure guesswork as to whom was Paul referring
    ... when he refers here to the word "man"?
     
  15. revmwc

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    No it is very clear what is being stated. Those who build upon the foundation, so who builds upon this foundation?
    11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

    The Foundation is Christ and only those who have believed can build upon Christ. For He is the Savior and only those who are His can build upon Him.

    12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

    Then the believer builds upon the foundation, if it was referring unbelievers then they have the wrong foundation, their foundation is the world and that foundation leads to destruction. Now if it were the unbeliever how can they build with Gold Silver and Precious stone?
    They can't those are the rewards of intrinsic value for those who believe. The believer building upon their faith and because of Faithful service they receive the crowns Paul and others talk about that are reserved for Believers.
    Now notice:
    14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    The believers who works of intrinsic value abide in other words pass the test of trial by fire receive those rewards.
    But:
    15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

    The believers whose works were accomplished in the flesh or who had drawn back into sin, will receive a reward but it will be consumed, and yet they will be saved yet so as through the fire. It can speak to no one but believers.
     
  16. JonC

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    I understand your comment that if anyone “draws back” from something that they must at least have been at a certain proximity to that “something.” If I draw back from a task, I may not necessarily have been engaged in that task, but at least I have become aware that that task exists.

    Looking at the passage, the author expresses an expectation (or at least a desire) that his audience is of those who “believe to the saving of the soul.” Do you believe that any of them were of those who “believed to the saving of the soul”? Do you believe that the author meant to say that they all believed “to the saving of the soul” but had better take care unless they “draw back to perdition” (the author was creating a false dichotomy)?
     
  17. dad1

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    Great, so how does that work in your mind when some Calvinist accuses someone who 'departed' from their church or something of 'never being saved'? Do they come back in a year and then they were considered to have been saved after all? Yo yo religion. By the way, I'll let the insults slide this time. Strike one.
     
  18. Internet Theologian

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    You have no clue what yo're even talking about.

    1) John MacArthur does not and has never espoused that one can lose salvation.

    2) He has never held to your false doctrine.

    3) He has never, and has had no reason to recant his work contained in The Gospel According to Jesus.

    You need to stop bearing false witness and note Exodus 20:16
     
  19. Internet Theologian

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    Do you believe that once a person 'asks' to be saved that they can then deny all the gospel truths, Christ, and His teachings, and are still 'heaven bound'?
     
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  20. JonC

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    It has been my experience that the logic holding the fulcrum of salvation as based on man’s decision and the doctrine that men can lose their salvation through volition are one in the same. I know we can’t make “logical conclusions” for other people, and there are arguments for the sealing of the Holy Spirit after a “free-will” conversion, but if the determining factor for faith is man then it seems that the determining factor for continued faith would also be man. Likewise, if it is God who saves then it seems logical that it is also God who keeps men saved.
     
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