About the Pope

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Salty, May 22, 2015.

  1. Salty

    Salty
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    From a discussion on another thread - the Pope came up.
    So Lets discuss the pope. I found this article on Wiki.

    1) what would you disagree with the article.

    2) from a theological point of view, what points is the RCC church wrong ?
     
  2. McCree79

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    The Pope has no claim as holding the office of Peter. Gregory I says "Like myself, you are at Alexandria and at Antioch are successors of Peter". So the Bishop of Rome claims there is others successors of Peter. So, who is in charge?????

    Innocent I and Leo I made great claims to Peter's primacy. Using Matthew 16 of course, like many Catholics do. Jerome, writer of the Vulgateand Augustine, the churches greatest teacher of the 5th century, both disagree with the bishop of Rome's claim. The interpret the rock as Christ. The language of " binding and loosing" is repeated to all apostles. Showing their equality.

    James, not Peter presided over the Jerusalem conference. Paul rebuked Peter in Antioch. Both showing Peter was not supreme.

    Gregory I also stated that all bishops are equal and if one is exalted above the others, others would cease in reality to have episcopal office.

    Early church bishops have opposed the authority Rome. The Roman Bishops have resorted to forgery to secure his spot.

    Heck, the council of Nice a 325_ recognized bishop equality.

    We could go on and on, refuting the bishop of Rome's claim, by using the voices of early popes, bishops and teachers inside the "RCC"
     
  3. BobRyan

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    The article starts off with
    1. There is no mention of "HOW" those temporal powers were "accrued" via fraud. "The Donation of Constantine" was a document supposedly conferring state powers on the Papacy - by the Emperor Constantine and was used in numerous legal arguments over the centuries to support the claims to being a state. All of which were based on the forgery.

    2. The inquisition, the burning of many Christians and Bibles... not mentioned.

    3. The multi-pope lineage where multiple lines all existed at the same time each with its own successors and its own armies - not resolved in that article.

    4. The current Pope belongs to a monastic order that was abolished "forever" in the 18th century "By all the fullness of Apostolic power" that Pope Clement had.

    5. And of course the Pope is promoting evolutionism for Christians. Still

    6. Which leads to the SS marriage issue.

    So ... just a few details off the top that don't make honorable mention.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. lakeside

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    BobRyan, you really haven't a clue about Church history.

    The "Donation of Constantine" is a forged document containing concessions of great privileges and rich possessions, supposedly made by Constantine the Great to the pope and the Church.

    In many manuscripts, the document bears the title “Constitutum domni Constantini Imperatoris” (Ordinance of Lord Constantine Emperor). It is divided into two parts. The first, entitled the “Confessio,” sets forth how the emperor was instructed in the faith by Pope Saint Sylvester I, baptized by him, and cured of leprosy. In the second part, entitled “Donatio,” the emperor is made to recognize the primacy of the Church, and to grant to the Bishop of Rome certain marks and insignia of honor, e.g., the tiara and the imperial robes. In addition the emperor transfers to the pope and his successors, as their property, the city of Rome, Italy as well as the castles, towns, and provinces of all Italy and the West.

    The account of the baptism, cure, and donation are entirely legendary, the last being built up, no doubt, on the contributions of Constantine to the Patrimony of Saint Peter. The origin of this document is much disputed. It was composed by an unknown author, between 750 and 850, most probably in France, although many hold in Rome. It is sometimes attributed to the author of the False Decretals (but without sufficient reason), sometimes to some Roman ecclesiastic. Laurentius Valla proved it to be a forgery, 1440. Various opinions exist as to the purpose of the document. Some hold it was intended to support the claims of the popes to secular power in Italy; others, to exalt the power of the popes over the emperors. Most probably it was composed to establish the legitimacy of the foundation of the Western Roman Empire against the emperors of Constantinople.

    At any rate the popes never considered this “Donation” as the basis of their power, but placed upon entirely different grounds the foundation of the papal prerogatives and the powers exercised by the Holy See.
     
  5. McCree79

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    The forgery included language that Constantine donated the Roman bishop sovereignty over the western world and ordered all clergy to obey the Roman bishop. The document was forged to trick Pepin the Short and his successor to recognize the secular claims of his papacy. It most certainly was used to advance papal power.

    Then you have the Pseudo-Isidorian Decretals. Used by the bishop of Rome to advance the papacy against the claims archbishops.
     
  6. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    So what? To quote Hillery Clinton, "what difference does it make? "
     
  7. lakeside

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    Yes, and it is a very good thing that it was the Catholic Church in charge of preserving Christianity and the Holy Bible because if it was another different church of some kind then we wouldn't have the Bible { NT } that we all have accepted as Canonical listed as the inerrant Word of God, along with Christianity, God made sure that His Church would be strong enough to test the times. And yes Jesus did say that his church would be far from perfect being made up of both " good and bad" including clergy.
     
  8. BobRyan

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    If you are trying to prove your accusation against me - by "Agreeing with my statement" about the forgery - well... then... I find your logic "illusive".

    That Catholic document was used numerous times over many centuries in Catholic courts of law to sustain the claims of the RCC. It is part of Catholic Canon Law.





    [FONT=&quot]If the RCC authoring the document and then 10 of her popes affirming it – appealing to its contents – arguing its key salient points –( with the successful result of gaining legal civil powers as a direct result of it )- is not the RCC revealing what it thinks to be the rightful source of its own civil power - then nothing does.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
     
  9. BobRyan

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    If the RCC never had any legitimate right to civil authority - then the entire Holy Roman Empire idea was a farce, based on forgery and fraud.
     
  10. JonC

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    1 - here are a few from the beginning of the article:

    There is a misunderstanding of the “keys of Heaven” and “binding and loosing.”
    There is a misunderstanding on exactly who or what that “rock” means.
    There is no successor of any apostle.
    The “dogma of papal infallibility” and speaking “ex cathedra” constitute heresy.
    Peter was never “at the head” of the Apostles or the Church - although he is often the representative of the whole.

    2- From a theological point of view, the RCC is wrong in all points because it's foundation is wrong. It is an apostasy born "anathema." The Church was the faithful remnant that existed outside of the Catholic Church and those saved despite it's heresy.
     
  11. lakeside

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    JONC, you are the person that misunderstands the keys given to Peter and the apostles. THe symbolism for authority is used in the Bible { Is. 22: 22; Rev.1: 18 }Peter was the first as leader of the others to receive the Keys from Jesus, along with his duty as Christ's earthly shepherd.
     
  12. JonC

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    I know that is what you believe, Lakeside. You are, after all, Catholic.
     
  13. lakeside

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    Thank you JonC. I am grateful to be a Catholic, but I'm still on a daily conversion in attempting to be a better Catholic, for me it isn't an easy task but it is a much easier cross to bear than many have.
     
  14. Salty

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    Would you rather be a better Catholic or a better Christian?
     
  15. JonC

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    When we seek to grow I think we will always find it difficult (growing pains, so to speak). I know that we disagree, but I sincerely hope that you did not sense animosity in my comments (none directed at you from this post or another). I am opposed to your religion (I gather you don’t like mine so much either)…which was granted before we ever conversed. But know that I am praying that God will reach you through His Word (I genuinely want the best for you). Like I said, there is none so blind as an apologetic. Be careful where you get your information, as I am where I obtain mine.
     

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