Abraham's people

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by pinoybaptist, Sep 4, 2004.

  1. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    8,123
    Likes Received:
    1
    We know that Abraham was called by God from Ur, and that he travelled to the land which was to be called Israel in the future.

    We know that national Israel descended from Abraham, and that Lot settled elsewhere, in fact, after his incestous affair with his daughters (Genesis 19:36) we find no more mention of Lot, and the Bible concentrated on Abraham.

    Now, Genesis 25:18 records Abraham's death, and this curious phrase 'he was gathered to his people'.

    </font>
    • Does this mean they brought his body back to his country and people of origin ?</font>
    • If yes, isn't it curious God did not have this recorded of one whom he called His friend ?</font>
    • If not, and the Hebrew people have not yet formed, since he had only Isaac, and Isaac had not yet sired Jacob, out of whom the 12 tribes came, then who are these who are called Abraham's people ?</font>
     
  2. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    8,123
    Likes Received:
    1
  3. DavidsAngel

    DavidsAngel
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    If you look at verse 9 in this chapter it gives the location of the Grave.

    ...buried him in a cave of Machpe'-lah, in the field of E'-phron the son of Zo'-har the Hit'-tite, which is before Mem'-re.

    This gives the location of the grave. So more than likely it was in the area of the "Hittites".

    Verse 10 goes on to say that he is buried on land he owned.

    That is the answer to the first question

    It is curious but, maybe it is unesssary because after this passage, he moves into the linage of Abraham. Maybe when this was written they knew. And, maybe we don't need to know this in order to understand. :-/

    That is my view although some might see it diffrently.

    My point is that God wrote the Bible in all perfection. He only put in it what we needed to know. He did not include anything that would not help us understand him.
     
  4. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    5,500
    Likes Received:
    20
    We find the following in John Gill’s commentary:

    Gen 25:8 - Then Abraham gave up the ghost,.... Very readily and cheerfully, without any previous sickness or present pain, but through the decay of nature by reason of old age, in a very easy quiet manner:

    and died in a good old age, an old man; for quantity, in those times few arriving to a greater; for quality, not attended with those inconveniences and disadvantages with which old age generally is, and therefore called evil:

    and full of years; in the original it is only, "and full"; the Targum of Jonathan adds, "of all good"; temporal and spiritual, with which he was filled and satisfied; or he had had enough of life, and was willing to depart, and was full of desires after another and better world:

    and was gathered to his people; which is to be understood not of his interment, there being only the body of Sarah in the sepulchre in which he was laid; but of the admission of his soul into the heavenly state upon its separation from the body, when it was at once associated with the spirits of just men made perfect. The Arabic writers (f) say that he died in the month of Nisan, others say Adar, in the year of the world 3563; but, according to Bishop Usher, he died A. M. 2183, and before Christ 1821.

    (f) Elmacinus, p. 34. Patricides, p. 21. Apud Hottinger. Smegma Oriental. p. 315.
     
  5. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    8,123
    Likes Received:
    1
    Thank you, Craig. That was very nice of you to quote Gill. Perhaps you think because I am a Calvinist ? (But I am not).

    Well, let me quote in reciprocation, Wesley of the Arminians:

     
  6. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    "GAthered to his people" is a figure of speech for death (cf. Ross). I don't think we should read anymore into than that ... He died ... Period.
     
  7. superdave

    superdave
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    2,055
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree Pastor Larry. Incorrect interpretation of idiomatic expressions has led to some pretty wacked out theology

    It seems pretty basic to me.
     
  8. Bro Tony

    Bro Tony
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2004
    Messages:
    2,398
    Likes Received:
    0
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  9. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    8,123
    Likes Received:
    1
    Is it wacked out theology to say Abraham's people were those who went ahead of him to paradise ? Unless you say the Hittites were his people. Can't be Sara, she's his wife.
    Didn't the Bible say that we ought to 'study the Scriptures' ?

    Didn't Jesus advise those who opposed him to 'search the Scriptures' ?

    In my study of the Scriptures, and in searching the Scriptures, and in comparing spiritual with spiritual, a precept here, a precept there, a line here, a line there, I came to the conclusion that Abraham went to heaven when he died, and therefore was gathered (brought together) to his people. Was I wrong ?

    Do you propose that all who read this verse stop there and not think anymore, and in thinking, try to find an answer to his questions by searching the Scriptures ?

    Or, do you advise them to refer to the 'Theologians' ?

    Strong's dictionary defines 'gathered' as acaph (Hebrew no. 622), a primary root meaning to gather for any purpose, to assemble, gather together, put all together.....

    Considering what the Bible says about Abraham, and what God says about Abraham, I suppose his soul, the real Abraham, was assembled in paradise along with Enoch, Abel, and all who have gone on ahead of him. Or do you think his soul is somewhere in limbo, or at rest, asleep ?
     
  10. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    No, I don't think you are wrong. I think you are right and I agree with you. But I do not think that is not what the passage is saying.

    It is one thing to be right; it is another thing to base it on the wrong passage. To borrow from a book title, that is a case of Right Theology from the Wrong Text.
     
  11. DavidsAngel

    DavidsAngel
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    -makes a face- So was I right or wrong :eek: :( [​IMG]
     
  12. superdave

    superdave
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    2,055
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree with pastor Larry again, that happens more often than not. I am not saying anything regarding the actual truth about where Abraham went when he died, I am saying that this verse is not necessarily making a theological statement, and the phrase is euphamistically referring to death. It very well may be as you say, but this verse cannot be used to make such a statement given its genre, and the nature of idiom.

    I would disagree on a minor point. Abraham did not in all likelihood go to Heaven proper when he died. He most likely was taken there at the ascension of Christ following his three day internment in Paradise. From the writings of Paul and Peter, we see a different handling of OT saints before their redemption was fulfilled on the cross.

    Abraham's Bosom, Paradise, Sheol, etc. Whatever you want to call it. It is a separate place from Heaven as in the place where God resides. It is not however Limbo, pergatory, or some other indeterminate state.
     
  13. superdave

    superdave
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    2,055
    Likes Received:
    0
    To highlight the problem with this verse in and of itself being used to place Abraham in Heaven, the phrase could also be construed as simply describing the fact that Abraham had followed his anscestors to the grave. "Slept with his fathers" is another common phrase that denotes this, and could refer to all of the anscestors of Abraham, not merely those who would be considered OT Saints.
     
  14. wopik

    wopik
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2002
    Messages:
    1,158
    Likes Received:
    0
    Jesus came down from heaven and indicated that no MAN was up there with Him:

    "And no MAN has ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man" (Jn 3:13).

    Can we BELIEVE JESUS when He said, no MAN - NO ONE - has ascended into heaven ?

    Either we're wrong, or Jesus is wrong. Take your pick !
     
  15. superdave

    superdave
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    2,055
    Likes Received:
    0
  16. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2002
    Messages:
    2,662
    Likes Received:
    0
    I understand 'gathered to his people' speaks of his people were gathered for mourned over Abraham's death just like as funereal service, we know that.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  17. Paul of Eugene

    Paul of Eugene
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2001
    Messages:
    2,782
    Likes Received:
    0
    "Gathered to his people" is a non-specific, intentionally vague, description of joining the family that has passed on before.

    The view of the afterlife at the time of Abraham was vague and the phrase is a perfect reflection of that fact.

    By the way, it was funny to notice an earlier responder mention how people were taken to "the bosom of Abraham". How does that work when the person going there is Abraham himself? [​IMG]

    Relax folks, no doctrinal problem exists. It is obvious that Jesus used the phrase about "the bosom of Abraham" idiomatically.
     
  18. superdave

    superdave
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    2,055
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hey, you caught that! I thought it was funny, but than, some people just don't understand my sense of humor. I guess we could just call them idioms :D
     
  19. DavidsAngel

    DavidsAngel
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    I wouldn't dare to say that Jesus is wrong. But, One thing i'm having trouble with. Wasn't Elizah taken up to heaven?

    Or am I Misinformed as usual hehe :D
     
  20. superdave

    superdave
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    2,055
    Likes Received:
    0
    Elijah and Enoch would be an interesting counterpoint, I am not sure how the two concepts would be rectified, except that those two did not die, they were translated, perhaps there is a difference related to that fact.
     

Share This Page

Loading...