Absolute Proof of ARminian error in Jn. 12:32

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by The Biblicist, Jan 22, 2014.

  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    Every ARminian on this forum argues that "all men" in John 12:32 means "all men WITHOUT EXCEPTION" rather than "all men without distinction."

    However, their interpetation can be proven wrong and very easily.


    1. There is historical documented evidence in our own century where entirel civilizations have lived and died without ever hearing about Christ, the cross or the gospel.

    a. The New Guinea head hunter tribes had never heard of the gospel, the cross or Christ from their father's and grandfathers until modern missionaries came to New Guinea and they were killed by them.

    b. The American Indians were both pantheists and polytheists much like the Hindoo religion with one great or primary god and their fathers and grand fathers never heard of Christ, the gospel or the cross previous to missionaries coming to them in the 17th century.

    2. There are "some" disciple given as examples of "some" who never were drawn by the Father in John 6:64-65 although they EXTERNALLY heard, was taught and learned the gospel by John the Baptist and Christ (Jn. 3:16; 36; Acts 1:21-22) and made it their PUBLIC profession proving that being drawn by the Father is not synonmous with EXTERNALLY hearing the gospel preached, taught or learning it.

    3. Even though some may object and refuse to accept the fact of #2 above they cannot deny #1 above and that is sufficient to prove their intepretation of John 12:32 and the words "all men" to mean "all without exception" to be completely false.
     
    #1 The Biblicist, Jan 22, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 22, 2014
  2. Yeshua1

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    There also is evidence that God is right now doing something supernatural among Muslims, as while their culture/nation shut offf to Gospel, God seems to be sending to them in these last days dreams/visions of risen Christ to bring in a harvest among them, which shows us that God reserves to Himself his elect out from all nations/tribes/tongues, that its due to him saving them, not them coming to Chrsit on their own voliation!
     
  3. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    I don't know of any valid evidence to support this claim. However, that does not at all deny the fact that such was not the case among the New Guinea head hunter tribe or the American Indians.
     
  4. Yeshua1

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    Just was repeating whathave heard from missionaries involved in getting bibile into those muslim nations, and also have heard tales from chrsitian news services, and they were NOT charasmatic circles!

    I discount just about anything from those circles as really happening!
     
  5. Winman

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    I would argue that it means all men without exception, but it must be understood that a man must hear of Christ to be drawn to him.

    No, the verse is speaking of all men, but a man must hear of Christ to be drawn to him and believe, this is what Paul shows in Romans 10:14;

    Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

    It is the preaching of the cross that draws men to Jesus. The hardest heart often melts when one hears of Jesus's love and how he died on the cross to save us from our sins.

    But no man can be drawn or believe on Jesus unless he hears the gospel.

    This may be true, and this is why we are commanded to go to all nations and teach.

    Nevertheless, when men do hear the preaching of the cross they are drawn to Jesus.

    True, but this does not change the fact that when men hear the gospel they are drawn to Jesus.

    The fact that men heard the gospel but did not believe does not prove they were not drawn. Stephen said that the Jews did always "resist" the Holy Ghost. This argues that the Holy Spirit did draw and entice them to come to Jesus, but they fought and resisted against God's drawing.

    Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

    Unless the Holy Spirit were exerting an influence and drawing upon these Jews, it could not be said they were resisting the Holy Ghost.

    Your arguments, like the Holy Ghost can be resisted. You believe your arguments are irrefutable, and yet many of us disagree with them on a regular basis. You are not nearly as convincing as you believe yourself to be.

    But even if you were correct (you are not), people can resist your arguments. Likewise, though the drawing and arguments of the Holy Spirit be perfect, men have the ability to resist and reject them. This is shown over and over again in scripture.

    What is not shown in scripture is this false view of yours.
     
    #5 Winman, Jan 23, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 23, 2014
  6. Yeshua1

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    NONE of those who have been elected out beforehand by the father shall resist the Spirit!

    Those who do and keep on resisiting Him are the lost!
     
  7. Winman

    Winman
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    Who said they did?

    You figured that out all by yourself? Good for you! You get another gold star.

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Yeshua1

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    So yuo also agree with irresistable grace, as the elect shall receive jesus , while the rest shallresisit willfully, and stay/remain in their sins!
     
  9. Winman

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    I'm sorry, we are going to have to take away your gold star. You must now sit in the corner.

    [​IMG]

    Please study your Bible until you know correct doctrine, and how to spell.
     
  10. evangelist6589

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    And you are one to talk? Tell us your view on Original sin and your view that man was not born with a sin nature but only becomes a sinner. Explain this view so Yeshua1 and I can understand.
     
  11. Winman

    Winman
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    I seriously doubt I could explain anything that you would understand.
     
  12. evangelist6589

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    Try us. Why are you hesitant on telling us about your view on original sin?
     
  13. Winman

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    I have been absolutely honest about my view on Original Sin many dozens of times here at BB.

    YOU are the person afraid to be different. You parrot others constantly. I doubt you have had an original thought in your life.

    I could show you dozens of scriptures that prove Original Sin is false doctrine, but you could not possibly understand because you have already made up your mind. You believe what others tell you mindlessly.
     
  14. BobRyan

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    God reaches "EVEN THEM" with His drawing according to actual scripture.

    Romans 10
    16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
    (then Quote - Ps 19:1-4)

    18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;
    Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
    And their words to the ends of the world.


    Paul quotes Ps 19 speaking of the voice of "nature".

    Nobody doubts that "nature" reaches all mankind.

    Romans 2
    13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
    14for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
    15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
    16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

    26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision?
    27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law?
    28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;
    29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

    James 4
    17 Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.

    In fact God DOES "Draw ALL mankind" unto Him - John 12:32. Though the case for Calvinism would not be too happy about that.

    in Christ,

    Bob

     
  15. evangelist6589

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    No I believe the Bible and what the word teaches which is that ALL MANKIND WAS BORN WITH A SIN NATURE. Your idea that all I do is parrot others is a false one but thats not what you want to believe.
     
  16. Aaron

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    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2054083&postcount=30
     
  17. BobRyan

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    In response to Aaron's link.

    Correction: All have sinned and come short of the Glory of God - is true of the new born whose sinful nature is "short of the glory of God".

    But God sent His Son "to be the Savior of the WORLD" 1 John 4 and as an "Atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" which covers the infant that is born with the sinful nature which falls short of the glory of God.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. Yeshua1

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    To WHOM does the Lord extend his Grace and mercy towards though?

    ITS the elect of His, chosen by Him to be found in Christ!
     
  19. Yeshua1

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    Were all of us born in same condition/state as jesus was then? As right with God?

    Were we innocent, and had our natures changed into sin natures when we first choice to sin then?

    Were we all reconciled to God , and had to get lost due to willful sinning then?

    was jesus ONLY sinless person who ever lived, ONLY one who kept the law as God intended?
     

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