Acts 15

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by billwald, Jan 23, 2012.

  1. billwald

    billwald
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    VV 1-3

    Gentiles were "getting saved" through Paul's preaching. Jewish Christians demanded the gentile converts be circumcised. They decided to let the Jerusalem Council settle the matter.

    VV 4-6

    The problem was argued in the Jerusalem Council.

    VV 7-11 Peter argued that the gentiles were saved by the Holy Spirit same as the Jerusalem Council had been and noted that neither they nor their ancestors had been able to obey Torah Law.

    V 12 The Council heard testimony that the Holy Spirit had regenerated the gentiles in the same way same as the Jews.

    VV 13-21 James agreed with Peter's argument that even though every Jew knew Torah Law, none observed it thus it would be foolish to require gentiles to (attempt to) observe what Jews could not do.

    James suggested that the Torah Law for gentiles be reduced to, " . . . they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood."

    VV 22-29 The Jerusalem decided that Peter and James were correct. They sent a directive to the gentiles requiring they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood AND relieving them of the obligation to observe the rest of Torah Law.

    VV 30-41 Paul and the delegation returned home and lived happily ever after - sort of.

    MY POINT? GENTILES ARE NOT REQUIRED TO OBSERVE TORAH LAW except as mentioned above.


    1And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

    2When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

    3And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.

    4And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.

    5But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

    6And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

    7And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

    8And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

    9And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

    10Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

    11But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

    12Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

    13And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:

    14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

    15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

    16After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

    17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

    18Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

    19Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

    20But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

    21For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

    22Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

    23And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.

    24Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

    25It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

    26Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    27We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.

    28For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

    29That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

    30So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:

    31Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.

    32And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them.

    33And after they had tarried there a space, they were let go in peace from the brethren unto the apostles.

    34Notwithstanding it pleased Silas to abide there still.

    35Paul also and Barnabas continued in Antioch, teaching and preaching the word of the Lord, with many others also.

    36And some days after Paul said unto Barnabas, Let us go again and visit our brethren in every city where we have preached the word of the LORD, and see how they do.

    37And Barnabas determined to take with them John, whose surname was Mark.

    38But Paul thought not good to take him with them, who departed from them from Pamphylia, and went not with them to the work.

    39And the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other: and so Barnabas took Mark, and sailed unto Cyprus;

    40And Paul chose Silas, and departed, being recommended by the brethren unto the grace of God.

    41And he went through Syria and Cilicia, confirming the churches.
     
  2. JarJo

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    Thanks for posting about such an interesting subject and interesting chapter of Acts.

    I agree with what you've said here, your interpretation of Acts 15. But what I wonder is, does this particular rule that the apostles came up with in Jerusalem apply in all places at all times to all Christians? Are Christians forever banned from consuming food with blood because of a decision by a council that was primarily concerned with issues between Jewish and Gentile converts? Or does that rule go away once its purpose has been served? And who has the authority to revoke the rule?

    Can a council be called today to look at whether its time to reconsider those rules? And who would be the "fathers of the council" in the place of Peter, James, and Paul from the Jerusalem council?
     
  3. billwald

    billwald
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    After Jerusalem was destroyed, certainly after the Bar Kochba rebellion, the Orthodox Catholic Church assumed the responsibility and expressed their rulings in the ecumenical creeds. There has been no legit ecumenical council since the Bishop of Rome pulled out of the Orthodox Catholic Church.
     
  4. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    No, but NO, "Gentiles" or Jews or Christians EVER, since Jesus Christ resurrected from the dead, are "REQUIRED TO OBSERVE TORAH LAW".

    The very idea is contra-Gospel freedom as well as contra-Gospel LAW.

    By the way, the 'specifications' of things to ABSTAIN from – mark well, not to do – are not 'Torah Law'. They used to be and still are, pagan, idolatrous 'OBSERVANCES'.

    In the end the council did not give finality to the very question of its convening, namely, circumcision! Rather the outcome of the council for all future of the Christian faith was, in one word, Let the status quo go on!

    And that status quo completely depended – among other and weightier fundamentals – upon a REGULAR, FREE and NATURAL, observance of Sabbath Day the Seventh Day of the week.

    Undeniable!

    Who would dare deny Sabbath-observance was the taken-for-granted and totally UNQUESTIONED and SPONTANEOUS A PRIORI of, and virtually exclusive OPPORTUNITY for, to announce and administer the council's decisions to the CHRISTIAN Church?

    And who would dare suggest that Sunday observance was put forth by the council as replacement for Sabbath keeping?

    LOL!



     
    #4 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jan 23, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 23, 2012
  5. billwald

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    >And who would ever dare suggest that Sunday observance was put forth by the council as replacement for Sabbath keeping?

    Only the majority opinion since AD 70.
     
  6. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    This, Acts 15 and the Jerusalem council, and Colossians 2:12-19 and _Christian_ Sabbath observance, are the TWO examples par excellence of CHRISTIAN, FREE, and ON CHRIST'S RESURRECTION RELIANT "FEAST OF SABBATHS’, whether of (occasional) month's, or of (Institutional and customary) SABBATHS' ", occurrence.

    “DO NOT YOU LET YOURSELVES BE CONDEMNED BY ANYONE IN THE WORLD WITH REGARD TO EATING AND DRINKING OF ... SABBATHS' FEAST!"

    ... IS IT WRITTEN ...

    ... in _NEW_ Testament, WRIT!

    Yes we NEED the Torah-Law to enlighten us further on the matter. But the Law written on "HEARTS of stone" – 'Torah Law’ –, has now been written upon "HEARTS of flesh"— Christ's Law … Paul, “consoling” the Believers-in-Christ, “coraised-together-in / with HIM” Colossians 2:2.

     
    #6 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jan 23, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 23, 2012
  7. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    GE:

    Historically INCORRECT!

    What are your indicators for your assumption?

    Already the minority opinion since about that time while Paul wrote Galatians 4 yes-- a minority backsliders obviously OUSTED through the labours of Paul;

    and by no majority at all before perhaps the third century AD.
     
  8. Chowmah

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    ACTS 15 [17] That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. [18] Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. [19] Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among THE GENTILES are turned to God: [20] But that we write unto them, that THEY ABSTAIN FROM POLLUTIONS OF IDOLS, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. [21] For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

    Pollution of idols {V 20}.

    LEVITICUS 19 [3] Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and KEEP MY SABBATHS: I am the Lord your God. [4] TURN YE NOT UNTO IDOLS, NOR MAKE TO YOURSELVES MOLTEN GODS: I am the Lord your God.

    LEVITICUS 26 [1]Ye shall MAKE YOU NO IDOLS NOR GRAVEN IMAGE, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the Lord your God. [2] YE SHALL KEEP MY SABBATHS, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the Lord.

    EZEKIEL 20 [16]Because they despised my judgments, and walked not in my statutes, BUT POLLUTED MY SABBATHS: FOR THEIR HEART WENT AFTER THEIR IDOLS.

    Seems to somethin to do with the keeping of Gods sabbath
     
  9. billwald

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    Note the present case in v. 20.

    Note VV 23-24. Paul ordered to go to the Temple and obey Torah purity rules.

    Note VV 26-27. Paul followed orders made by the Jerusalem Council regarding Torah Law.

    >No, but NO, "Gentiles" or Jews or Christians EVER, since Jesus Christ resurrected from the dead, are "REQUIRED TO OBSERVE TORAH LAW".

    The Heidelberg Catechism has invented a work-around. We are not required to observe the Law but we do so because we love God and wish to show our gratitude to God.



    Acts 21: 20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

    21And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

    22What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.

    23Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

    24Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

    25As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

    26Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

    27And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him,[/I]
     
  10. The Biblicist

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    They are not required to keep the Torah law at all! Those things listed are for the sake of the gospel ministry among them so that the bearers of the gospel don't offend them unnecessarily:

    20But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

    21For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

    The purpose for abstaining from these things was not obligation to the Torah law as the Torah law included much more than this. These were the mininal things necessary not to unnecessarily offend Jews and keep them from hearing the gospel.

    We are no longer under the Old Covenant Law or its seal and sign the seventh day Sabbath.
     
  11. Chowmah

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    This passage is speaking of circumcision. Thats all. Not the 10 commandments.
     
  12. billwald

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    21And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.


    >This passage is speaking of circumcision. Thats all. Not the 10 commandments.

    Then what customs are referred to?

    Why are the 10 statements different than the rest of the 613 statements?

    Which OT passage obligates gentiles in the USA to observe any the the 613?
     
  13. Chowmah

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    EPHES. 2 [11] Wherefore remember, that ye being IN TIME PAST GENTILES in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; [12] That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and STRANGERS FROM THE COVENANTS OF PROMISE, having no hope, and without God in the world: [13] BUT NOW IN CHRIST JESUS ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. [14] For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

    It was for Israel only. Was. We were once strangers from Gods covenants of promise, having no hope. BUT NOW in Christ, should we take hold of those covenants, we have hope

    ISAIAH 56 [6] Also the sons of THE STRANGER, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one THAT KEEPETH THE SABBATH from polluting it, and TAKETH HOLD OF MY COVENANT; [7] EVEN THEM WILL I BRING TO MY HOLY MOUNTAIN, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for ALL PEOPLE.

    Even them (us gentile strangers mentioned in Ephes.2)
     
  14. Chowmah

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    If you dont talk to strangers...how about the others

    JOHN 10 [14] I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. [15] As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. [16] And OTHER SHEEP I HAVE, WHICH ARE NOT OF THIS FOLD: THEM ALSO I MUST BRING, and THEY SHALL HEAR MY VOICE; and there shall be ONE FOLD, and ONE SHEPHERD.

    OTHER SHEEP I HAVE.....Bring where? These “other sheep” are the gentile believers

    ISAIAH 56 [1] Thus saith the Lord, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for MY SALVATION IS NEAR to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. [2] Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. [3] Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the Lord, speak, saying, The Lord hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. [4] For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; [5] Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. [6] Also THE SONS OF THE STRANGER, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one THAT KEEPETH THE SABBATH from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; [7] EVEN THEM WILL I BRING TO MY HOLY MOUNTAIN, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. [8] The Lord God which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, YET WILL I GATHER OTHERS TO HIM, beside those that are gathered unto him.

    YET WILL I GATHER OTHERS. Jesus BRINGS THEM to His Holy Mountain. The 1000 yr period of rest. Yes, the “others” are the gentiles. As plain as the nose on my face, these “others” are keeping Gods sabbath day. They have taken hold of His covenant. No way around it. So, have “many” come in the name of Jesus and decieved many as the bible said would happen? I reckon so. You must be keeping the sabbath in order to be saved to the kingdom. No doubt about it.
     
  15. Chowmah

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    JER. 16 [19] O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.[20] Shall a man make gods unto himself, and they are no gods?[21] Therefore, behold, I will this once cause them to know, I will cause them to know mine hand and my might; and they shall know that my name is The LORD

    Here ya find an old testament scripture telling gentiles to stop making those graven images. Stop comin up with a song and dance as to why they think its ok to make these things
     
  16. billwald

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    (Please) Define "graven images."
     
  17. Chowmah

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    Theres really no need. Ive seen all the rationalizations. Such as...are pictures of my children graven images?

    LEVITICUS 9 [2]And he said unto Aaron, Take thee a young calf for a sin offering, and a ram for a burnt offering, without blemish, and offer them before the Lord.

    Here a young calf was used as a sin offering

    DEUT. 9 [16]And I looked, and, behold, ye had sinned against the Lord your God, and had made you a molten calf: ye had turned aside quickly out of the way which the Lord had commanded you.

    And as Moses went up the mount to receive the 10 commandments the people below made a graven image that resembled that sin offering. They made a molten calf. God was not happy with these people. I wonder if some of them made the claim that it was not really a graven image, only a likeness of the sin offering. Now of course the crucified Jesus is our offering for sin. And now people are doing the same.
     
  18. Chowmah

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    Alls ya really got to do is accept the writings in Jer.16. Is that scripture true about the gentiles. Go from there
     
  19. billwald

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    What forms of art are acceptable?

    Is "Grey's Anatomy" acceptable? Da Vinci? Paul Klee or Picasso? Manger scenes at Christmas? The Sunday cartoons? The Statue of Liberty? The engravings on money?

    What about totem poles if bought as an art form?
     
  20. Chowmah

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    No Greys anatamy is not acceptable. NCIS and Castle are much better
     

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